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Need help putting together a PA

P

peterwsmith

Jul 24, 2008
463
18
Bismarck, North Dakota
#1
I've just been asked to try to put together a live sound setup for an organization I volunteer with (mostly because I have lots of free time, not because of any expertise). I was hoping I could get some input on what I found, and any tips on bringing the price down, because the budget is $7500, and I came out at $10,025. :help:

Here's what I came up with (what they wanted is on the left, and what I found on the right):

2 3-way powered speakers - QSC HPR153i $2000

24 channel board-6 aux sends - Allen & Heath GL2400-24 Live Console Mixer - $2100

5 powered monitors – JBL EON315 $2500

100 ft 24 channel snake - Pro Co StageMaster 100' 24-Channel/4-Return Stage Snake $525

Vocal EFX Processor - Not sure

4 SM-58 $400

3 SM-57 $300

3 Active Direct Boxes - Countryman Type 85 $540

1 Beta 87A $250

Drum Mics - Shure PG 6-Piece Drum Microphone Package $400

24 Mic Chords - Live Wire XLR 20' Microphone Cable $360

10 1/4 inch chords - Live Wire Advantage Series 1/4" 15’ Straight Instrument Cable $150

8 mic stands - DR Pro Tripod Mic Boom Stand $480

Like I said before, I don't have much expertise on this, and most of these items were selected from reading various reviews online. As for a vocal effects processor, I have no idea. It's probably one of the more optional items on the list too, but any suggestions would be wonderful!

Any input would be appreciated. Unless of course it comes in the form of "that stuff sucks, you're an idiot, and I'm not going to offer any helpful advice to go with my criticism".

Thanks TB!
 
#5
Looks like the powers-to-be are very specific about their requirements (powered cabs as opposed to amp / passive enclosure config's). Are they working on the recommendations of a sound engineer or copying a rig they've seen elsewhere? Just curious.

Riis
 
#6
Addressing a couple questions:

What's the project? It's basically an organization that my band works with that does evangelical events throughout the state, as well as putting on non-religious events in the poor community.

Can we buy used? I'm not sure, but I hope so. It basically would need board approval, which could be a problem, because one board member (the president) isn't a big fan of used stuff.

Why powered? Two reasons. Storage space for travel is somewhat limited. Also, volunteers for setup/teardown are quite limited, mostly consisting of my band and the soundguy. So the easier that can be, the better.

3 DIs? Honestly not sure, but I'm fairly certain we need two for sure, so they might just want an extra.

Beta 87? We've used one a couple times here and there, and it just seems to work quite a bit better for vocals in our experiance.

I appreciate all the input so far!
 
#8
What's the largest venue it will be used for? How was the budget $$ arrived at? If it's a made up number, it may be unrealistic for your goals. I've been down this road before and it's usually a bumpy road, especially for someone who is inexperienced. IME, even if you buy the good stuff, has the church budgeted for maintenance, replacements, insurance, transportation costs(vehicle maintenance usually goes up carrying heavy loads, especially for tires).

Also, the church will have to have a secure location to store the equipment when not in use.

Don't forget about budgeting for speaker covers, mic cases, mic stand cases, mixer case, cases for the cables, cab casters etc. Seems like the $10k is about $2,500 too low. There's probably a bunch of other miscellaneous stuff you'll need to get as well.

The more cases you have, the less clutter you'll have to load.

One weakness of powered speakers is that if one goes down, you'll have to ship it back to the factory to get it repaired replaced. Same for all other equipment. What will you use when something is sent back for replacement/warranty repairs.

I also suggest you look at the Sure Beta 58's, especially since the mic will be used a lot for speaking. The supercardiod design as better sound rejection for near by instruments.

As for buying used, when you're buying/recommending for someone else, if a problem comes up, you'll be blamed since there's no warranty.

Getting the cost down 25% is probably not realistic with the components you've selected. You have $6,600 out of $7,500 total budget already spent for powered mains, mixer and monitors.

If you keep the $3,425 you have in mics, stands, etc. Based on a $7,500 budget, that leaves $4,025 for powered speakers, mixer, effects and monitors.

FYI, here's what's on craigslist: http://craiglook.com/fargo-nd/all.html?q=pa&m=250

Seems to me the church should refine it's goals. I mean, to mic the entire band and cover 500-1000 people probably isn't going to happen with $7.5k. Maybe a good vocal system with coverage of the kick drum would be okay.

Here's another current TB PA link you might want to check out: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=632494
Something to think about.
 
#9
instead of 3-ways with no sub, i would go sub/tops but that's just me i guess. don't know if that will save you money, though. also, do you need 24 channels and 6 monitor sends? if you could cut back to 16 channels and 4 monitor sends, that could save you a few hundy on a board. really, though, unless the band is willing to cut a few corners here and there, i don't see how you can do it.
 
#10
More random information.

One thing I just found out is that a lot of the mics, cables, and stands aren't completely needed. They have some of that stuff already, but basically wanted to have two sets. Why? I don't know.

The largest venue this would be used for would maybe be 1000 people. More often that not though, it's more like 50-500.

They do have a seperate budget for maintenance, transportation, etc. They also have secure storage available for everything.

The bands usually consist of 1-2 guitars, 1-2 keys, bass, drums, up to 4 vocals, and occasionally violin or cello, but never all those things at once.

As for the mixer, I think we'd be fine with 16 channels, but it's not my call. Their reasoning is we'll probably need 16ish channels most of the time (which is accurate), but what if we run out?

For the vocal effects processor, they mostly just want a little reverb now and again, so what's the best route to go there?

I'm going to check out the Beta 58s as well as the tops and subs route now, to see how pricing would change.
 
#12
#1 I would highly recommend something like a DBX Driverack PA+ (at least) that will give you just about everything you need to control whatever mains setup you do get and still give you room for the future.

#2 You definitely want to have at least 1, 31 band EQ channel for every monitor channel you plan on running and I'd run at least 2 monitor channels (one for vocal performers and one for musicians). You're probably going to have quite a bit of your overall vocal volume coming from those 5 monitors if you run them all on one channel. (and you'll be bouncing your head between it being too loud in the house and constantly having the performers asking for more in the monitors)

#3 Explore In-Ear monitors for the musicians with one or two real monitors for the vocal performers. You probably won't save any money if you do go Wireless IEM, but wired you might save some $$$ and hassle.
 
#13
for simplicity and ease of setup..

Assuming this will end up in churches eventually -- any IEM will reduce your stage setup..

I can send you a free article on how to use a Rolls PM351..

Overall..

I'd consider rackmount mixers you can buy some great "studio" or "recording" decks with 16-20 channels many will havew a graphic EQ.. these then can feed monitors.

I wouldn't rule out hard wired IEM.. this will save you a ton of gear, cost and sound checking..

Some just don't like the IEM and are tied to their Marshal Plexi.

====

OFFER..
If you can get to Minneapolis, I'll let you fire up a $2000 PA that will handle out door events (3,000 people) etc.

Unfortunately for sound gear, it starts with the staffing.. transportation.. storage.. audience and budget.. there is no one right answer.

Only thing I"d suggest is rackmount everything.
 
#14
MNAirHead said:
for simplicity and ease of setup..

Assuming this will end up in churches eventually -- any IEM will reduce your stage setup..

I can send you a free article on how to use a Rolls PM351..

Overall..

I'd consider rackmount mixers you can buy some great "studio" or "recording" decks with 16-20 channels many will havew a graphic EQ.. these then can feed monitors.

I wouldn't rule out hard wired IEM.. this will save you a ton of gear, cost and sound checking..

Some just don't like the IEM and are tied to their Marshal Plexi.

====

OFFER..
If you can get to Minneapolis, I'll let you fire up a $2000 PA that will handle out door events (3,000 people) etc.

Unfortunately for sound gear, it starts with the staffing.. transportation.. storage.. audience and budget.. there is no one right answer.

Only thing I"d suggest is rackmount everything.
Click to expand...

There is no way a $2000.00 PA can cover 3000 people outdoors and sound decent. :rollno:
 
#15
Well the Allen and Heath is a fine mixing desk. No doubt about that, I used one for years. However, my current mixing desk is a Yamaha MG24/14FX.

It has the 24 channels you are looking for, plus 6 sends and it also has 2 built in effects processors.

I've had mine for around 3-4 years now, gets gigged a lot (road gigs, not an installation) and has been completely trouble free. It's not as 'exotic' as an Allen and Heath, but it gets the job done reliably and sounds crisp and clean.

It retails at around $1100, with a 'street price' more like $900. So I just saved you $1000 right there, and saved you the cost of whatever effects you were thinking of.
 
#17
I'm definitely interested in both the Driverack PA+ and that Yamaha mixer. I'll have to pass those on to the board as well.

@MNAirHead

I actually have your article on the IEMs, but I don't think it would work in this instance. My band wouldn't forgo using their amps, and even if they did, we're often not the only band, so then it would be a matter of getting all the other guys to go ampless too. It is a very cool setup you've got going though!
 

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