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Need more volume from Demeter/Bergantino NV combo

Happy I bit the bullet and went for the Demeter vtbp 800 and not the 400 watt. So far I’m liking this amp a lot more at home into protools than the sound I’m getting at practices. I have a Bergantino NV212 running with it, and although I have a better sound than what I did have, I’m not blown away by my current combination. The power and volume increase I have with this rig has only really brought to my attention how boomy the rehearsal space is, and I’ve cut my midrange entirely on the amp trying to get a more behaved sound, while still wishing I had more power.
What kind of volume increase can I expect if I were to add on another cab, like an NV115? It’s my understanding that I’m only using half of the power of my Demeter head running the one cabinet.
 
I own an NV212T which is my #1 go-to cab. I find it to be plenty loud by itself for most any situation I ever find myself in, so unless your band has multiple loud, low-mid heavy guitars, other instruments that are competing in your frequency range, or it is just frigging loud in general, I'm surprised you're not getting enough volume. Since you describe the room you're in as being boomy, maybe you should make a judgement on the sound of the amp after playing in a more sympathetic acoustical environment. Sometimes the room is everything.

Power handling on the NV212 is rated at 400w, which is what the Demeter is putting out into 8 ohms, so I don't think being underpowered is the issue - although since most manufacturers conservatively rate power handling specs on their cabinets, I'm sure the NV212 can easily take a bit more than 400W. When you say you're only using half the power of the Demeter, that may be true in terms of wattage, but you might experience the difference more in increased headroom than perceived volume.

Although the tone controls on the Demeter amps are a bit subtle, I doubt if cutting mids is helping your sound cut through the mix. In my experience increasing mids, rather than decreasing them is the solution to that. I would describe the Demeter amps as being a bit on the "polite" side, so maybe a more aggressive sounding amp would serve you better.

Having experimented a lot with using multiple cabinets, I've found that it is hard to get different cabs to play well together. There can often be problems with phase coherence and differences in efficiency that result in unbalanced volume between cabinets (especially if you don't have a true stereo amp). I've found that multiple cabs never sound as focused as a single cab, to my ears anyway, so in your case if you feel like you need to move more air I would instead look to a larger single cabinet solution. I'm sure others will disagree, maybe even with everything I've said here!
 
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I own an NV212T which is my #1 go-to cab. I find it to be plenty loud by itself for most any situation I ever find myself in, so unless your band has multiple loud, low-mid heavy guitars, other instruments that are competing in your frequency range, or it is just frigging loud in general, I'm surprised you're not getting enough volume. Since you describe the room you're in as being boomy, maybe you should make a judgement on the sound of the amp after playing in a more sympathetic acoustical environment. Sometimes the room is everything.

Power handling on the NV212 is rated at 400w, which is what the Demeter is putting out into 8 ohms, so I don't think being underpowered is the issue - although since most manufacturers conservatively rate power handling specs on their cabinets, I'm sure the NV212 can easily take a bit more than 400W. When you say you're only using half the power of the Demeter, that may be true in terms of wattage, but you might experience the difference more in increased headroom than perceived volume.

Although the tone controls on the Demeter amps are a bit subtle, I doubt if cutting mids is helping your sound cut through the mix. In my experience increasing mids, rather than decreasing them is the solution to that. I would describe the Demeter amps as being a bit on the "polite" side, so maybe a more aggressive sounding amp would serve you better.

Having experimented a lot with using multiple cabinets, I've found that it is hard to get different cabs to play well together. There can often be problems with phase coherence and differences in efficiency that result in unbalanced volume between cabinets (especially if you don't have a true stereo amp). I've found that multiple cabs nevert sound as focused as a single cab, to my ears anyway, so in your case if you feel like you need to move more air I would instead look to a larger single cabinet solution. I'm sure others will disagree, maybe even with everything I've said here!
Thank you for the response! I enjoy the 2x12 but sometimes I wonder if I could get a better sound with a 15” in addition, especially for when I use an octave pedal.
Funnily enough the band I’m playing with has no guitar players, but the keyboardist uses all vintage Rhodes, Hammond etc... into a massive wall of Leslies and tube combos lol. I think the main culprit of all my woes is the room itself though, might have to cut into my new bass savings fund and coat the whole place in auralex.
I’m using a fretless jazz bass with Thomastik strings, cutting my mids has definitely cleaned up my sound as far as the intense reverberation and mud in the room. Sometimes I think that the Demeter is just dishing out exactly what’s being put into it, ie my extremely mid forward bass guitar.
 
I owned the Demeter VTBP 800 and a NV212t .. although not at the same time.
You are correct that the Demeter is "only" putting out 400w into 8ohms (it does the full 800w @ 40hms) but 400w should be plenty of power into the NV212t unless your playing at ungodly volumes. I'd be careful about adding an NV15 to this mix unless you can try it out in person. Those cabs have a pretty solid low-mid hump and IMO/IME they are kind of boxy sounding on their own. FWIW, I have used a CN112 under my NV212t from time to time and it definitely ups the overall volume level.

I tend to agree with ad9000 that cutting mids does not jump right out as the best way to tame mud. My experience with the Demeter was that its a very polite amp with a fairly mid/high-mid present natural voice and a pretty narrow EQ impact ... i.e. twisting the Bass Mid Treble controls does not change things in a huge way. How are you setting the EQ switch points for Bass and Presence, and where are you setting the Mode (dark, normal, bright).

You may be a good candidate for an HPF. It will help you work with your room acoustics, keep pointless low freq's out of the mix and let the amp really drive just the freq's you want.

Last thing I'll say is to be careful about solving the EQ situation in your rehearsal space and imagining you are good for all other live sound situations. You may just be dealing with a bad acoustic space and the real solution might be to fix the space (if possible).

good luck
 
I owned the Demeter VTBP 800 and a NV212t .. although not at the same time.
You are correct that the Demeter is "only" putting out 400w into 8ohms (it does the full 800w @ 40hms) but 400w should be plenty of power into the NV212t unless your playing at ungodly volumes. I'd be careful about adding an NV15 to this mix unless you can try it out in person. Those cabs have a pretty solid low-mid hump and IMO/IME they are kind of boxy sounding on their own. FWIW, I have used a CN112 under my NV212t from time to time and it definitely ups the overall volume level.

I tend to agree with ad9000 that cutting mids does not jump right out as the best way to tame mud. My experience with the Demeter was that its a very polite amp with a fairly mid/high-mid present natural voice and a pretty narrow EQ impact ... i.e. twisting the Bass Mid Treble controls does not change things in a huge way. How are you setting the EQ switch points for Bass and Presence, and where are you setting the Mode (dark, normal, bright).

You may be a good candidate for an HPF. It will help you work with your room acoustics, keep pointless low freq's out of the mix and let the amp really drive just the freq's you want.

Last thing I'll say is to be careful about solving the EQ situation in your rehearsal space and imagining you are good for all other live sound situations. You may just be dealing with a bad acoustic space and the real solution might be to fix the space (if possible).

good luck

thank you!
Right now I’m running it in bright mode, treble and bass are around 1 o clock, mids scooped, bass freq is set to 60hz, presence is around 1o clock and set to 4khz.
Is the cn112 not ported? I’ve read I should only pair another sealed cab with my current NV
 
thank you!
Right now I’m running it in bright mode, treble and bass are around 1 o clock, mids scooped, bass freq is set to 60hz, presence is around 1o clock and set to 4khz.
Is the cn112 not ported? I’ve read I should only pair another sealed cab with my current NV
there's no hard religion about mixing ported and sealed cabs. It may be best to do so, but the rule of "if it sounds good, it is good" applies. Jim Bergantino has been quoted as saying different cabs of his can be mixed without any problems. Of course, ideally, you would just double up your NV212t cabs for a modular 4x12 rig so your amp power would be evenly distributed to the drivers. FWIW, the few times I paired my NV212t with my CN112 it worked fine. I rarely do it because I rarely need/want to.

As far as your Demeter settings, you definitely seem to be running on the bright and shiny side. I always find "presence" controls to be somewhat of a challenge ... like a high-mid control. I tend to use a non-scooped mids tone with pretty balanced lows and highs .. definitely not very bright/shiny tone. Of course, you need to get the tone that works for you, the music you play and the venue's you play in, so even though I would personally use Dark mode and drop the presence level on the Demeter, that may not work for you at all.
 
Thank you for the response! I enjoy the 2x12 but sometimes I wonder if I could get a better sound with a 15” in addition, especially for when I use an octave pedal.

I have used a Berg NV115, but not in conjunction with the 212. It's great, but it doesn't really put out any more low end than the 212, if that's what you're looking for - it's just a different character, punchy and articulate in the low mids and overall very authoritative, as you would expect from a 15.

Sometimes you can get in trouble by having too much low end, and I totally agree with the suggestion from pfschim to use a high pass filter. I have one from Broughton Audio that is killer and probably my most frequently used pedal. It doesn't change the tone at all, it just does what it's
supposed to and is a great help with boomy room problems.
 
That amp cab should be plenty of volume.
I’d recommend not scooping the mids, but rather try boosting them a bit. The perceived volume increase will be obvious as you tend to hear those mid frequencies in the mix much more than the lower and higher ones. If the room is boomy you might cut the low frequency a bit (as cited above, too much low end in a common killer mix wise) as well as consider decoupling the cab from the floor/wall.
 
I was thinking more of pairing cabs from different manufacturers when I said in my previous post that I haven't had good results using multiple cabs. I have used combinations of different Bergantino cabs that worked very well together, probably my favorite combination being Jim's original HT210 and HT115.
 
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That amp cab should be plenty of volume.
I’d recommend not scooping the mids, but rather try boosting them a bit. The perceived volume increase will be obvious as you tend to hear those mid frequencies in the mix much more than the lower and higher ones. If the room is boomy you might cut the low frequency a bit (as cited above, too much low end in a common killer mix wise) as well as consider decoupling the cab from the floor/wall.

This would be my recommendation as well. Scooping the mids will make your rig seem quieter and is unlikely to help the boominess issue - in fact, it could make it worse. I owned an NV212T and found it to be rather tight in the lows compared to the ported cabs I was used to. It is possible that this cab may simply be too much for the room you are in and needs some tweaking at the amp to compensate.

I would experiment with rolling back some of the bass on the Demeter at 60 or even 120 hz to see if some of the boom can be dialed out while retaining “punch”. Another option is an outboard LPF which could be even better at targeting potential problem frequencies.
 
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I appreciate all the extremely provoking information from everyone.

anyone familiar with Kush Audio? They make the Electra EQ which has a HPF. I was already looking at these for use in recording, it has pretty amazing and drastic effects on drums, and a bassist I enjoy a lot uses it full time as part of his live rig.They’re quite expensive but it seems to me it would be useful for being able to tune my rig to different rooms and venues, and make having one for my studio all the more worthwhile
 
The Demeter makes 500W at 4 ohms and 800W at 8 ohms

The idea is you have enough power to push 1 or 2 NV212s to the limt. Under this circumstance, adding a second matching cab will give you +6dB from mutual coupling.

Keep in mind that mutual coupling only occurs at frequencies in which driver spacing is whithin about 1/4 wavelength. In other words, you get a bit more efficiency down low.

Sensitivity of the NV212 was listed as 99dB 1W/1m.

The decibel change from 1-400W is 26dB. Add this to the sensitivity rating, and then add +6dB for the mutual coupling between two cabs.
99+26+6=131dB
131dB is approximately the max volume you should expect from a pair of NV212 pushed to the limit with a 800W amp.

That's stupid loud.

One NV212 with 400W
99+26=125dB
That's still pretty darn loud.

I would also suggest exploring options with an LPF, EQ, and aiming the cab at your ears so you actually hear the full frequency response. If you are standing close to the cab and the cab is flat on the floor, the highs and high mids will shoot out below you waist, so you won't hear these important frequencies.
 
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