Need some help with a few questions. 4 string player moving to 5 string... maybe?

[juggahnaught]

TL : DR
What are your preferred 5 string bass string and nut spacings? Which pickup type likes the low B best? Which amp has the best loop for plugging a modeler into the Return?



I've been a 4 string player moving to a 5 and need some help narrowing the list of my options related to and not related to that

Background, I play a Yamaha BB (P type) with a 63 Vintage or QP Precision depending on the season through Helix Native out to monitors. In Helix it's a Darkglass B7K/Compressor frequency crossover parallel split into an Ampeg SVT-4 and finally an Ampeg SVT410HLF IR. I'm primarily a finger style or pick player and nearly always play sitting.

Now as to where I want to go. Let's just say this is going to get weird

I have issues with shifting horizontally and reach to the low strings as I move up the neck. Imagine a line from the nut on the low E to the highest fret on G to picture where my ring finger can reach. My spread and reach at the nut are not issues.

I had originally thought to restring to BEAD using the B as a glorified thumb rest to bring the EAD down into reach. But now I'm thinking a 5 string may be better since it still drops the strings down without dropping the G and the string spacing at the bridge is now preference and not fixed at the typically 19mm most 4 strings have.

Alright all that out of the way. For pick and finger style players which string spacing do you prefer and how thick are your fingers? And on the other end, how tight is too tight for nut width? Is there a pickup type, P/J/SR/HH etc. that "hears" that low B better than others? Also which body styles are most balanced while sitting with a strap but letting your leg take most of the weight?

Semi related I'm thinking the biggest upgrade I can make otherwise is going out to a 12" combo or amp+cab through it's effects loop return instead of monitors. That said, who makes a ~200W amp with a known good effects loop for this use? When I last had a "real" amp it was a 200W 15" combo and it never got played above 9 o'clock so my concern is about the effect loop quality not brute output. If it ends up being a 100W amp, so be it.

Thanks to all who respond

n a later post, you mention a handicap, which you didn't mention explicitly in the original post. (If it were not for this, I would have said that you are overthinking all of it.)

You've asked a lot here. However, there's more information needed.

1. You say that you nearly always play sitting. Does this mean you stand?
2. How do you prefer the bass to balance when you are holding it? How high do you wear your bass?
3. You mentioned the bass balancing on your leg. Which leg do you place your bass on?
4. You mentioned your ring finger dexterity across strings, but stated that a five-string would move the strings into a more advantageous position (?). Do you play with your thumb on the back of the neck in a classical position? Or do you wrap your thumb around the neck?

Without answers to these questions, it's hard to recommend a body shape that might work well for you. However, if you like the bass you're playing now, you should probably look for something with that body style. String spacing and nut width will also depend on how you hold and play your bass. Again, if you like what you have, you may simply consider staying close to that.

As for the low B - all pickup types will work. Low B clarity is largely a matter of scale length, not pickup configuration. Just choose the sound you like.

As for the effects loop - you didn't specify, but if you are using the preamps in the Helix, the you'll just be using the effects return on any amp to bypass its internal preamp and EQ settings, effectively using it as a power amp. I would think that any amplifier would work well for this (although you would want a very transparent cab to cleanly produce the sound of the Helix unless you decide do disable the cab block). Based on that alone, I would think that a pair of larger studio monitors and a sub, or an FRFR speaker (I run both my HX Stomp and my Helix Floor through a QSC K12.2) would work better for your needs. (Edit: I just noticed that you said that you use Helix Native. Presumably, this means that you would be running a signal from your audio interface into the effects loop of an amp. This isn't about effects loop quality as much as it is matching the output signal to what the return is expecting. Your interface may send a line-level signal while the return loop expects something instrument-level. Something to be aware of - match your inputs and outputs.)

 

[Bonafide]

19mm on 5 and 6, but at 34". Turns out for my playing the scale makes a greater difference for consistent performance than string spacing.

 

[roller]

I would recommend anyone in your shoes to step up to a head/cabinet rig instead of going the combo route. Why? Compared to most combos I've heard (and YMMV), the quality of individual amplifier heads and cabinets is simply higher on a number of levels -- separate amps sound a bit nicer and have better tonal options, the effects loops are usually higher quality and the wattage is usually way higher. Separate speaker cabinets are slicker any way you cut it and are capable of handling more power... and with today's lightweight magnets, high-power, well-built cabinets come in small, portable (yet potent) packages.

Superb heads and cabinets are readily available at bargain prices on the used market -- Mesa, Genzler, Genz-Benz, Aguilar, Gallien-Krueger and more.

However, regarding combo amps, I will toss out I've always found the TC Electronics BG combos to sound terrific, have lots of cool features and are a tremendous bang for the buck. Fantastic tone, TonePrint effects, built-in tuner, all in the same box for a nice price? I'm hanging on to my BG250-112 even though I own a killer amp/cabinet rig.

Semi related I'm thinking the biggest upgrade I can make otherwise is going out to a 12" combo or amp+cab through it's effects loop return instead of monitors. That said, who makes a ~200W amp with a known good effects loop for this use? When I last had a "real" amp it was a 200W 15" combo and it never got played above 9 o'clock so my concern is about the effect loop quality not brute output. If it ends up being a 100W amp, so be it.

 

[thunesBARROW]

Keep trying as many different basses as you can. I’d say not to worry so much about tone right now and focus more on finding a neck that suits you. I can deal with a slab body much more easily than a neck shape I don’t like. Also, I personally find it difficult to play with tight spacing, even though I also play guitar. My Ibanez SR505 felt a little too tight for me, but I did eventually get used to it.

I have several basses because for me there is no Number One. Each bass has advantages and disadvantages that change the way I play.

 

[Bill Murray]

Everything you’re wondering about is determined by personal preference.

my personal preference is 17.5mm spacing (MusicMan 5s). I always go for active dual humbuckers. If you’re using a strap just about any body style will be fine but your typical shapes (P/J/Stingray) will definitely work.

I can’t discern what the issue is with shifting horizontally? But maybe fanned frets would help? Assuming you don’t play chords anyways.

I don’t believe an effects loop can be superior to another, if the amp offers one you’ll be good to go but for what you’re doing you absolutely do not need an effects loop. You will hear NO difference.

They are more so for guitarists who are using the amp itself for overdrive/distortion and want to add reverb/delay after the dirt rather than in front of it, which supposedly makes the sound cleaner? All of that is definitely debatable.

You control all of that from your Helix and you’re not using any delay or reverb anyways.

The Helix is essentially designed to be played through monitors so purchasing a new amp is a little redundant. If anything just upgrade the monitor instead.

IMHO you should just buy a cheap 5 string bass similar to your 4s and get comfy on it before you go hunting.

If you want to find the ideal one right out of the gate (which is very hard to do since your hands will be immediately uncomfortable). Try out whatever you can and bring your strap, monitor, and Helix and demo the basses sitting as you would. Take note of the string spacing and pickup voicing you like best.

Once you’re certain on those you can decide if investing in a nice 5 string makes sense and if it does you’ll know exactly what features you’d prefer.

I recently went through this with guitar. I played a cheap 7 string for a year. That’s how long it took me to understand what I was looking for in string spacing, body shape, and pickups. You won’t really know until your hands and ears can tell you what needs to change.

Good luck and take your time!

 

[lfmn16]

Find a music store and try some out. It might be inconvenient, but it’s the only way to find what works for you.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

TL : DR
What are your preferred 5 string bass string and nut spacings? Which pickup type likes the low B best? Which amp has the best loop for plugging a modeler into the Return?



I've been a 4 string player moving to a 5 and need some help narrowing the list of my options related to and not related to that

Background, I play a Yamaha BB (P type) with a 63 Vintage or QP Precision depending on the season through Helix Native out to monitors. In Helix it's a Darkglass B7K/Compressor frequency crossover parallel split into an Ampeg SVT-4 and finally an Ampeg SVT410HLF IR. I'm primarily a finger style or pick player and nearly always play sitting.

Now as to where I want to go. Let's just say this is going to get weird

I have issues with shifting horizontally and reach to the low strings as I move up the neck. Imagine a line from the nut on the low E to the highest fret on G to picture where my ring finger can reach. My spread and reach at the nut are not issues.

I had originally thought to restring to BEAD using the B as a glorified thumb rest to bring the EAD down into reach. But now I'm thinking a 5 string may be better since it still drops the strings down without dropping the G and the string spacing at the bridge is now preference and not fixed at the typically 19mm most 4 strings have.

Alright all that out of the way. For pick and finger style players which string spacing do you prefer and how thick are your fingers? And on the other end, how tight is too tight for nut width? Is there a pickup type, P/J/SR/HH etc. that "hears" that low B better than others? Also which body styles are most balanced while sitting with a strap but letting your leg take most of the weight?

Semi related I'm thinking the biggest upgrade I can make otherwise is going out to a 12" combo or amp+cab through it's effects loop return instead of monitors. That said, who makes a ~200W amp with a known good effects loop for this use? When I last had a "real" amp it was a 200W 15" combo and it never got played above 9 o'clock so my concern is about the effect loop quality not brute output. If it ends up being a 100W amp, so be it.

Thanks to all who respond

Interesting post. I’m not so sure why you would buy a 5 string using the B string as a thumb rest the tuning the rest of the strings to BEAD. I mean you could, but I’m not so sure I would. As for BEAD tuning, there is a trade off for those lower notes. To get them you give up a corresponding upper range which could force you to play higher up on the finger board, further exasperating your issue about reaching across the fingerboard.

As for reaching across the fingerboard to the B string, like above the 12th fret, if your fingers are short could be a problem. IMO, notes played on the B string above the 12th fret do not sound as good as the same pitch played on a smaller diameter string. Unless the music requires it, I would much rather go up and down the finger board if at all possible.

I hope you found this useful.

 

[DrBnz]

DEEP topic. "Playing" a 5 string really isn't an issue for anybody. Its just a mental barrier that they need to overcome (same w the fretless). Its not harder.... in fact its easier as there are more options for fingerings (handy when there are quick, complex fingerings required). I had/have extreme difficulties adapting to the B string. Specifically (on "my" Fender Ultra 5) it sounded horrible. It was just a low freq rumble. (I've heard 35 in scales are preferred for 5 strings. I haven't tested that theory (yet) as I already have too many toys in the closet). I tried 3 different strings before I started to like the tone.
Now I have med/large hands.... normal fingers - not sausage links. I kinda like wider strings (P-bass / Stingray widths) cause I feel bunched up at times with smaller / thinner necks (J-bass). So the 5 string is a compromise between them. I have both Fender and EBMM five string. I'd say I prefer the EBMM (side note - EBMM "G" string is v close to the board edge. You'll adapt, but I'd sure like just a little more room on that side of the board).
I'd also mention as I get older I will often opt to play across the board (vice down the length) just cause I can. Now sometimes it works out..... other times you'll find one string just sounds better than the other (for that passage) and you'll opt for that route.
Personal preference: I like the EBMM 5 (B string) far better than the Fender (B string). Now other than the "B" they are 2 different creatures (apples/oranges). But for the B string. You can simply "whack" an EBMM "B" string in any fashion you'd like and it'll sound good. For my Fender you need to have the EQ set up right and maybe even use some finesse when you "try" to whack it one.
P and J are two different critters as well. I like the "feel" of a P. But I have to admit that a J has more options in terms of sounds.
I'd also prefer an HH over an H. I just like the options / sounds with an HH.
In short: Try an EBMM 5HH Special and see what ya think? Don't be shy to try the Sterling ($1500 less). I tried one at GC a month back and was surprised by it (@ $450)

 

[tripp2k]

I’m a 4 stringer who’s about to transition to BEAD (slowly).

 

[Solude]

Thanks to all. Some clarifying points.

If I get the 5 it will be strung BEADG.

When I say handicap I mean rotation/spread challenges and yes short fingers.

As an example most people can rotate their neck 90 degrees to the left and right. I can do about 45 and the same sort of thing applies to my shoulder, elbow, wrist. Size wise I can get my middle finger between the strings at the nut easily and can play finger style hard at the 20th fret without touching surrounding strings.

As for the amp. The idea is to use the effects loop to bypass the preamp. I'd rather a real combo or head to a flat amp so I could play without Helix if needed. Helix runs on my desktop at home so it's not portable. The reason though is to get a cab. I can play through my monitors loudly but a set of 7" speakers just doesn't hit you in the chest like a good 12". Thinking Mesa Subway, GK Neo IV, Ampeg SVT level of cab. If I go GK then the amp and cab can be over there and myself and Helix at the desk. If I was to upgrade the monitors, the next set would cost $3000USD so the cab/amp/combo way is a lot cheaper. The monitors are great, I love the sound and level so for guitar it's a no brainer but for bass... physics

Hoping to keep the amp and bass costs to ~$1000USD each.

 

[DrBnz]

Tuning BEAD is the same diff as playing the top 4 strings on a 5 string. Keep in mind.... the lower 3 notes are rarely played, so we actually loose some fretboard space by doing that. I think that's where the Drop D tuners and DGCF tunings come from. So a 5 string adds those lower (rarely used) notes, plus it duplicates the "E" string. Now at first that sounds "worthless".... Not quite. The duplication actually opens up options to you as to where you can play along the board. Key shifts are FAR EASIER when you have those options. OR if you have physical reasons for wanting to play elsewhere on the board, a 5 string helps resolve that. Sometimes it just sounds better on different strings

 

[Solude]

I hear you. Quite a bit of the music I listen to is in C# so not having to detune or play higher will be nice.

 

[Zooberwerx]

IMO, a mid-tier Soundgear 5 would be your best cost-conscious option for a first 5 string. I can buy 'em all day locally for =/< $400. I own two and don't find the 16.5 mm spacing to be an obstacle even with my fairly-normal hands. That's why they're referred to as "pencil necked groovers".

I can't help when it comes to amps but, then again, secondhand (local sales) is the way to go.

Riis

 

[TheSpinDoctor]

I played a Schecter Studio Elite 5-string bass with flat wound strings primarily for church. The goal was to have an organ pedal type of sound, deep and sustained. The nut was cut funny so that the strings were not the same height off the fingerboard or at the playing height (I prefer them at the same playing height). The string spacing is somewhat narrow which limited how fast I could play and minimize extraneous string noise. When I began playing in a rock band a bass with better highs and a fast neck was needed. I bought a Gibson Thunderbird. The wider string spacing did reduce unwanted string noise and ground round strings were brighter. Switching between 4 and 5 strings did cause a problem, mostly I was unsure of which string I was playing on the 5 string bass. Changing to a BEAD tuning avoided this problem. As most of my bass lines are in the pocket, not playing high notes on a G string was not a loss. This worked for me, but depending upon your style and sonic goals, another approach may better suit you.

 

[Solude]

Just finished my winter setups and brother the BB feels great

Anyway, I used to tune to C# standard with 120s which was a little loose but otherwise fun

 

[W_R]

OP, based on what you asked and your details, I’d suggest adding something like a used or mid-level narrow width 5-string, like an Ibanez SR. No need to fully switch to a 5, maybe better to have one around to explore and see if you gravitate toward it. Good luck.

Other info: started on 5’s but found myself preferring 4’s, now have some 4’s tuned variously to E, E flat and DGCF, plus an SR 5-string, they all get played. Tried BEAD, might try it again for fun, but have no “need” at the moment. My opinion, BEAD or 5-string, it can take a little extra focus on the instrument setup to have the B match the other strings (string type/gauges, instrument adjustments etc); sound wise, I’d suggest focusing on string to string balance, which I think is actually more about mids/highs, especially with reference to your amp question. I have a Helix too, originally for guitar and it took a while to get into it for bass too, now I get it.

 

[juggahnaught]

Thanks to all. Some clarifying points.

If I get the 5 it will be strung BEADG.

When I say handicap I mean rotation/spread challenges and yes short fingers.

As an example most people can rotate their neck 90 degrees to the left and right. I can do about 45 and the same sort of thing applies to my shoulder, elbow, wrist. Size wise I can get my middle finger between the strings at the nut easily and can play finger style hard at the 20th fret without touching surrounding strings.

As for the amp. The idea is to use the effects loop to bypass the preamp. I'd rather a real combo or head to a flat amp so I could play without Helix if needed. Helix runs on my desktop at home so it's not portable. The reason though is to get a cab. I can play through my monitors loudly but a set of 7" speakers just doesn't hit you in the chest like a good 12". Thinking Mesa Subway, GK Neo IV, Ampeg SVT level of cab. If I go GK then the amp and cab can be over there and myself and Helix at the desk. If I was to upgrade the monitors, the next set would cost $3000USD so the cab/amp/combo way is a lot cheaper. The monitors are great, I love the sound and level so for guitar it's a no brainer but for bass... physics

Hoping to keep the amp and bass costs to ~$1000USD each.

It looks like Yamaha makes a five-string model of the BB. Would that not work for your needs? It would probably be very similar to what you have, so you already know about the body shape and contours.

As for the amp....if what you want is your tone through Helix Native, but I would still suggest a powered speaker. The QSC K12.2 supports the bass directly in and has a "bass amp" mode that works well, so you could use it standalone. It's out of your budget, though. But you won't get the flat response you want out of a speaker unless you go this route (or buy something like a Barefaced Big Baby 2, which is also out of your price range). Alternatively, get a center sub for your current monitor setup and set the crossover well - nearfields aren't designed to punch you in the chest, but a sub would bring more out of your current setup.

If you don't care about hearing your specific tone from Helix Native, or you are willing to change your presets to accommodate a physical cab, then I'd look at your local classifieds and see if anyone's selling a used Markbass CMD121P. They are powerful and loud, but the speaker definitely colors the sound even if you bypass the preamp - the cab has a voicing. They are compact and will definitely fill your room. Alternatively you could find a used 12" cab and a head to power it - this could be Markbass or something else. You can essentially buy the CMD121P as a head and a cab if you find a used Traveler 121 cab and a used Little Mark II head, and it'll probably be around the same price as the combo. Or just buy the cab and match with a less-powerful head. But I would definitely look used if you're just after volume.

 

[Flaked Beans]

TL : DR
What are your preferred 5 string bass string and nut spacings? Which pickup type likes the low B best? Which amp has the best loop for plugging a modeler into the Return?



I've been a 4 string player moving to a 5 and need some help narrowing the list of my options related to and not related to that

Background, I play a Yamaha BB (P type) with a 63 Vintage or QP Precision depending on the season through Helix Native out to monitors. In Helix it's a Darkglass B7K/Compressor frequency crossover parallel split into an Ampeg SVT-4 and finally an Ampeg SVT410HLF IR. I'm primarily a finger style or pick player and nearly always play sitting.

Now as to where I want to go. Let's just say this is going to get weird

I have issues with shifting horizontally and reach to the low strings as I move up the neck. Imagine a line from the nut on the low E to the highest fret on G to picture where my ring finger can reach. My spread and reach at the nut are not issues.

I had originally thought to restring to BEAD using the B as a glorified thumb rest to bring the EAD down into reach. But now I'm thinking a 5 string may be better since it still drops the strings down without dropping the G and the string spacing at the bridge is now preference and not fixed at the typically 19mm most 4 strings have.

Alright all that out of the way. For pick and finger style players which string spacing do you prefer and how thick are your fingers? And on the other end, how tight is too tight for nut width? Is there a pickup type, P/J/SR/HH etc. that "hears" that low B better than others? Also which body styles are most balanced while sitting with a strap but letting your leg take most of the weight?

Semi related I'm thinking the biggest upgrade I can make otherwise is going out to a 12" combo or amp+cab through it's effects loop return instead of monitors. That said, who makes a ~200W amp with a known good effects loop for this use? When I last had a "real" amp it was a 200W 15" combo and it never got played above 9 o'clock so my concern is about the effect loop quality not brute output. If it ends up being a 100W amp, so be it.

Thanks to all who respond

Long post, short reply! get a 6 string! yehh!

 

[WillyW]

BEAD is great for the terminally stubborn 4 string guy or to try out and access the lower notes without buying another bass.

you been reading my mail?


I tried BEAD, nah wasn’t for me.

I thought I would be smart and get a 6 and while I think the string spacing was possibly 17mm or so the fretboard was so incredibly wide and the bass was so ungodly heavy, I just couldn’t get along with it.

That experience got me very worried about neck width on a 5 string.

Covid hits and I’m not going to stores to try out 5 strings.

I run across a smashing deal on the local Craigslist on a Rickenbacker 4003, and learn how easy it is to convert to 5 string so I do that.

I haven’t measured the spacing between strings, but as I’m a 98% of the time pick player, I find it extremely comfortable to play.

I still would like to delve deeper into 5 strings at a later date but for now my 1 and only will do.

 

[BassGH]

It’s hard to guess what will work for you. 5s are hard that way-much more so than 4s. And I’d be surprised if your first try ends up working. Play everything you can. Be prepared to return/sell/replace.

I had a Yamaha bb 5 string which I initially liked. But it created elbow joint pain for me. Sold it. Switched to a stingray, which creates no elbow pain. Replaced all the electronics. Sounds something like an active Yamaha bb now and it’s my main bass.