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Double Bass New basses by independent builders vs. old basses

#163
furtom said:
Hi Ken,

Yes, I meant the Batchelder. In a year or so I may be in the market myself, so we'll see what's what then.

BTW, Didn't I see you at Bill Blossom's recital last year? I don't think I had the chance to introduce myself, but I saw you, I'm pretty sure.

Best,
Tom
Click to expand...

Yes, I was there. It was the first time I saw Bill in about 35 years. His son was a newborn infant when I took my last lesson at his house. Bill introduced me to him that night at the reception. His son was 35 years old. How time flies.

At the recital I was sitting towards the front with Biase, Bollbach, Schnitzer and a bassist from Philly who drove me to Arnold's from where we all left from for the city. Behind me was my other former teacher Lew Norton. With all my favorite people around me at the same time, the music was almost secondary.

Massimo? Did Arnold let you play my John Hart Bass? That's the old Maggini looking Bass, dark red over gold varnish with a chromatic C-extension. (she comes home next week).. Also, glad to see you finally sold that Martini (a different maker than the prolific 'Oreste' Martini). That was an interesting Bass, Cello shape and all. You just missed the Batchelder which was at Arnold's up until about a month ago.

Phil ('Toad), the last time I was at Kolstein's (on the way home from Bollbach's) Dave Weiner was there as well spec'ing out a Bass for another friend of his. Dave's a good guy.
 
#166
Ken, i saw your english bass (Hart) at Schnitzer's shop, beautiful but not in my budget so i didn't play it. I was curious about the Batchelder because i'm sure it could be an interesting jazz bass and i like these Yankee Prescott School basses; the only thing is that i'm looking for a D neck bass (i have seen on your past posts that it is a Eb neck.) Speaking of american basses, today i was at Gage's shop and was pretty impressed by the Prescott copy they have made there, actually if i were an orchestral player i would buy it today: extremely powerful sound and easy response on the bow (impressive especially considering it is a new bass)
 
#168
Uncletoad said:
Progris Riport:

We just drove across Ohio and half of Pensylvania today with little Vincent. My van is far to full of baby stuff. Thank god for DVD and LCD's. We are now parked in Hershey for a couple days of chocolate extended family fun.
Click to expand...

Toad...you were this close to our back fourty and you didn't stop by to shake and howdy? Wow...You could have stop by and did the snackfood factory tours. A little salt from our chips and pretzel snacks to go with all that chocolate! We have a level 56' driveway with an RV parking pad, water, electric and green grass for little Vincent to play upon...but no carved basses to test drive ;)

Enjoy the journey :cool:
 
#169
massimo said:
Ken, i saw your english bass (Hart) at Schnitzer's shop, beautiful but not in my budget so i didn't play it. I was curious about the Batchelder because i'm sure it could be an interesting jazz bass and i like these Yankee Prescott School basses; the only thing is that i'm looking for a D neck bass (i have seen on your past posts that it is a Eb neck.) Speaking of american basses, today i was at Gage's shop and was pretty impressed by the Prescott copy they have made there, actually if i were an orchestral player i would buy it today: extremely powerful sound and easy response on the bow (impressive especially considering it is a new bass)
Click to expand...

In my opinion, the Batchelder is a Smokin' Jazz Bass. It also Bows well and is currently strung for Bowing with Orig. Flex. and a Perm E.. Still, the Pizz is nice as well with that set. Too bad I wasn't aware of your visit to Arnold's because it was just there a few weeks ago and I would have gladly left it there for you. Because of the Summer coming on, I am bringing a few Basses home and give some space back to Arnold. He has several of my other Basses there for restoration and it sometimes looks like my second shop. The Hart on the other hand is set strictly for Orchestra and may not be the best Jazz Bass with its current set-up regardless of its hefty price tag. The Hart is coming home for the Summer as well next week.
 
#170
Progris Riport:

Couldn't make it to Gage. Transport in and out of the city would make exodus from the area to late in the day. Wife and Baby V had become very annoyed at my process so I pulled the plug and came home.

Oh well. Saw some nice stuff. Learned a bunch. I just drove 10 hours so I'll talk about it later. Toast.

1700 miles. Don't ask about the fuel.

End Progris Riport.
 
#171
Uncletoad said:
Progris Riport:

Couldn't make it to Gage. Transport in and out of the city would make exodus from the area to late in the day. Wife and Baby V had become very annoyed at my process so I pulled the plug and came home.

Oh well. Saw some nice stuff. Learned a bunch. I just drove 10 hours so I'll talk about it later. Toast.

1700 miles. Don't ask about the fuel.

End Progris Riport.
Click to expand...

Wow Phil. You made great time from Closter goin' home. How'd you do that w/ baby? V's a trooper. Whatta kid.

I really enjoyed our field research and hang.

Bri
 
#173
bribass said:
Wow Phil. You made great time from Closter goin' home. How'd you do that w/ baby? V's a trooper. Whatta kid.
Click to expand...
It's all in the timing.

Lucky naps and a couple surprise DVDs from the kiddie vault when he was burning up at the end.

the maui kid said:
They'll get over it. Just take 'em to Hawaii or something.
Click to expand...

Now theres and idea.
 
#174
Progris riport:

This bass search has left me with more questions than answers. I didn’t get to as many places as I wanted but I managed to play quite a few basses. I’ve made several general observations.

$20K doesn’t buy much in an old bass. I saw lots of stuff that needed work, played poorly, had deficiencies in tone or unevenness in tone. There was quite a lot of pedestrian stuff that was overbuilt and sounded dead or dull. Even the ones I liked the best left me with questions about repair needs on how to fix the problems they still had.

I don’t think it makes sense to spend that much bread on something that you still need to spend more bread on. Seems like pedigree is expensive and often pointless.

I didn’t run into anything “astounding” until I played stuff over $100K. Who can play instruments like that? How can any musician afford these things, afford to maintain them, and move them around? If you can you are in a small minority.

There were a couple basses in the $50K range that were very good. If I had that much bread and thought my playing was worth it I could see buying stuff in that range. I don’t and it’s not.

I played a couple basses that were excellent sounding but were rebuilt from piles of sticks. I swear some of these things had more hide glue than wood. They still sounded amazing but I can’t really use anything like that either. One slip up leaving the bass in the van in the heat while I have dinner and it’s a puddle of glue and lumber.

I realize that most of the best old basses that are healthy have histories of crack repair and other luthier interventions. I guess it’s more a matter of degree with me. I don’t think with the way I gig heavily fractured basses make sense.

I’ve got specific notes on specific basses I saw but I haven’t had time to work that up. I’ll get to it. I have some pics to that I’ll post. I’m still digging out from being away.

Suffice it to say that I played some stuff I liked but nothing that was “the one”. Perhaps one or two of them could morph into “the one” with the right intervention but that’s a crap shoot. I still haven’t ruled out everything but there is nothing that is screaming I must have this bass.

In the original spirit of this thread I’ll mention that Arnold Schnitzer had just completed building a Walnut bass for our friend Don Higdon. It’s a custom built in house by just Arnold from boards thing. That bass was astonishing. The tone was rich, warm, even, punchy, clear….all the things you want in a bass. Under the bow it was sweet and strong through all the registers. It was perfectly executed and beautiful. The finish was perfect especially when you consider the color of the dark walnut sides are now matched to the spruce top seamlessly. It already sounds good. When it breaks in it will be really something. When it’s 100 years old it will rival those six figure basses I played.

Yea, new basses don’t sound like 100 year old basses but they also don’t have the high maintenance of those instruments either.

Having played that, the most recent bass by Nnick Lloyd, and the modern Hungarian Transylvanian that is Higdon’s I’m quite impressed by the small independent builder these days. Overall those three basses played better, sounded more even and were clearly more durable than any of the ancient stuff I saw at more than twice the price.

I still don’t know what to do. The lure of the old wood is strong. The ease of use and reliability of the new wood is compelling.



One thing I do know, that Cleveland Ply for $4K is a damn big bang for the buck. It kicks the pants off a ton of $20K stuff I played in my travels. And yes all I played were fully carved basses.

End Progris riport.
 
#175
It's interesting what price points do to a bass:

$5-10K - Shen or some other high end chinese or Romanian; a carved La Scala or Wan Bernadel (also Chinese)

$10-20K - a "shop" German or Hungarian or Czech or Kolstein; Maybe a bass like mine (by Jorge Vasquez de Anda) that's a bit of an odd duck; or a Martin Sheridan, Paul Bryant or Jacques Gagnon

$20 - 40K - bottom end Italians? French, maybe; Poellmans; AND new basses by Hachez, Ross, Hannah Mayne, Cole, Schnitzler, Lloyd etc

$40-100K - Italian etc

The question that I think you've stumbled on actually was the question that won the Noble prize in Economics last year.

Example: you buy a bottle of wine for $5.99 (at least in LA you do) and you say "Wow, that's a great bottle of wine." The store says "oh boy, people think this is a great bottle of wine" and start charging $8.99 for it - and nobody buys it. At $8.99 you start thinking, "wow, for two bucks more I could get a REALLY good bottle of wine."

The economics become one of expectations - what do I EXPECT a $20K bass to do/sound like, etc? My hunch is that there are few $20/$30K basses out there that satisfy expectation two or three fold over a $10K bass (all things being equal), just as - to continue the analogy - you have to search high and low for a $30 bottle of wine that is 3x better than a ten dollar bottle - whereas - again, all things being equal - the $50 bottle of wine is immediately and significantly better.

I say (and again I have some limited experience) talk to modern luthiers, tell them what you want and have them make it for you - an dpocket the change.

Louis
 
#176
I went w/ Phil to Kolstein's and Arnold's and Arnold's Walnut bass really is all that.

It's the best bass that he's made, IMHO.

I think I've tried 3 of his previous carved basses. They are all nice, but this one somehow has and older seasoned, puffy, but focused sound and plays incredibly even.

Bri
 
#177
Uncletoad said:

One thing I do know, that Cleveland Ply for $4K is a damn big bang for the buck. It kicks the pants off a ton of $20K stuff I played in my travels. And yes all I played were fully carved basses.
Click to expand...


You like your ply Cleveland, why not consider a fully carved? I had one on trial for a few days and it was really a nice instrument, big sound and very responsive. Maybe Arnold can have one made for you out of some nice old wood. Just a thought...

I know you want old, I wanted old, got it and now I'm not so sure. Getting an old bass back in shape and set up to fit your playing style is no small order, a lot of legwork and thought even if you're not doing the luthiery yourself. And you're right about the repair money involved after you purchase your fixer-upper. I'm still in the middle of my project bass two years later, trying to make it right for me. The idea of going with a new or recent bass by a maker such as Arnold or Nick, built to today's standards, set up well, and ready to play is very appealing.
 
#178
This is really depending on the Bass and it's condition but once an old bass is repaired/restored properly (all the way) by a top notch 'no corners cut' Bass Luthier, maintenance should be minimal over time. Also, a New Carved Bass is not crack proof either. The same conditions and treatment (or mis-treatment) that can re-open a crack on an old repaired Bass can also Split a brand new bass up the Bassbar (most common that I've seen) or down by the Saddle towards the Soundpost.

I have played old Basses all of my life and in history, the majority of the professional Symphony players have as well.

If you find an old Bass that is not a pile of Splinters glued together and is in good repair or can be put into good repair then that's about as good as you will get.

If you are afraid of maintaining a Carved Bass old or new, then stick with Plywood. Or, get un-afraid because that's just a fact of life with old Basses.

For example, I bought an Italian Bass in 1973 made sometime in the 18th century that was in need of a major Top restoration. The Back and Ribs were in better shape. In less than a year this Bass was fixed and in use. About 2 years later the Top was removed and some excess wood removed from the other restorer on the patches and new Bassbar in order to improve the Tone in which it actually did, like right away! That Bass never went back in for a Repair for the next 20 years and I used it in and around New York daily! I lived in an apartment building with dry radiator heat and never owned a humidifier. I did use on occasion (when I would remember) a Dampit in each F-hole and was careful not to put them in wet or dripping.

Old Basses have stabilized over time. New Basses regardless of the age of the wood is still a New Bass as far as it's shape and collection of parts glued to each other goes.

The other thing it the Mojo.. No matter how good a new Bass is (and I do like some of these new Basses mentioned), the Mojo may take more time to develop than your Body has left in this life. Just my opinion. Also, what I buy, play and own supports my statements and theories above.
 
#179
KSB - Ken Smith said:
For example, I bought an Italian Bass in 1973 made sometime in the 18th century that was in need of a major Top restoration. The Back and Ribs were in better shape. In less than a year this Bass was fixed and in use. About 2 years later the Top was removed and some excess wood removed from the other restorer on the patches and new Bassbar in order to improve the Tone in which it actually did, like right away! That Bass never went back in for a Repair for the next 20 years and I used it in and around New York daily! ......

Old Basses have stabilized over time. New Basses regardless of the age of the wood is still a New Bass as far as it's shape and collection of parts glued to each other goes.

The other thing it the Mojo.. No matter how good a new Bass is (and I do like some of these new Basses mentioned), the Mojo may take more time to develop than your Body has left in this life. ...
Click to expand...
Right. I'm down with all that.

The hard part I see is getting a bass to do that and not having so much money in it you cant get right side up in it for 10 or more years.

Bass + Repairs should equal current retail value in my head.

What I'm seeing is that the bass, no matter how messed up it is, costs all the money and then you have to spend over what it's worth to make it work.

That math doesn't add up for me.
 
#180
LouisF said:
It's interesting what price points do to a bass:

$5-10K - Shen or some other high end chinese or Romanian; a carved La Scala or Wan Bernadel (also Chinese)

$10-20K - a "shop" German or Hungarian or Czech or Kolstein; Maybe a bass like mine (by Jorge Vasquez de Anda) that's a bit of an odd duck; or a Martin Sheridan, Paul Bryant or Jacques Gagnon

$20 - 40K - bottom end Italians? French, maybe; Poellmans; AND new basses by Hachez, Ross, Hannah Mayne, Cole, Schnitzler, Lloyd etc

$40-100K - Italian etc

The question that I think you've stumbled on actually was the question that won the Noble prize in Economics last year.

Example: you buy a bottle of wine for $5.99 (at least in LA you do) and you say "Wow, that's a great bottle of wine." The store says "oh boy, people think this is a great bottle of wine" and start charging $8.99 for it - and nobody buys it. At $8.99 you start thinking, "wow, for two bucks more I could get a REALLY good bottle of wine."

The economics become one of expectations - what do I EXPECT a $20K bass to do/sound like, etc? My hunch is that there are few $20/$30K basses out there that satisfy expectation two or three fold over a $10K bass (all things being equal), just as - to continue the analogy - you have to search high and low for a $30 bottle of wine that is 3x better than a ten dollar bottle - whereas - again, all things being equal - the $50 bottle of wine is immediately and significantly better.

I say (and again I have some limited experience) talk to modern luthiers, tell them what you want and have them make it for you - an dpocket the change.

Louis
Click to expand...

There is much truth to this! There just seem to be certain products for which the price is not necessarily even directly (let alone proportional) to quality. Loudspeaker systems are a notorious example. In my experience anyway, basses are too. Price points seem to often be chosen with a good dose of desired perception. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that, overall, price is unrelated to quality. Not in the least. I think most of us here can recall examples of basses carrying wildly different prices and it being the case that there was little difference between them or even that the lower priced one was substantially better.

Some of this effect is, of course, related to manufacturing costs and methods and economies of scale but I'll leave the economics discussion for another thread and time.
 

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