New Classic Tube Amps?

[Nashrakh]

I'd add Traynor to the list. The YBA200 is a damn fine amp. No custom stuff though.

 

[Shane Carter]

I'd add Traynor to the list. The YBA200 is a damn fine amp.

I have to agree and I really like the tone from this amp, but an alternative to the SVT only in a lighter, less power kind of way.

 

[Munjibunga]

there are a handful of indie tube amp makers...vereillen, old school...and reeves, eden, markbass, orange, hiwatt, b*******r/bu***a, and possibly one or two other major companies i can't think of at the moment do it. but the price of materials for a tube amp is way higher than for basses, so it discourages the less well heeled amp makers.

but honestly, the matchup for ampeg if you're making a fender/sadowsky comparison is nothing imho.

Thanks for masking your profanity.

 

[edbass]

My money's on the Orange in a shaker table/vibration test. I'll bet the Orange has better consistency from amp to amp also. Chances are, the Orange is generally more safe since it is built under commercial product safety guidelines.

My post was in response to the “over priced "hand" assembled boutique models” comment that I quoted and highlighted. I don’t believe that there is anything inherently wrong with PCB construction, provided the price point is commiserate with the product.
At $800-$900 the mass produced AD200 would be a good value IMO, and that includes paying for UL and/or CE certification.

More expensive parts, yes. Higher quality, better performance parts not so 90% of the time in my experience. Most boutique amp builders peddle "mojo parts" that look pretty mounted to turret boards (which is fine if that's what you want). The other 10% actually use truly high quality parts.

It’s not unusual for boutique builders to test each component’s value individually, before it gets hand wired into the circuit. Since you obviously are “in the know’ is it your experience that volume producers test each component on production amps before the PCBs get dipped in solder?
I was of the belief that the majority of testing was done on the final chassis, and that warranty claims handle any errant individual flawed components that pass final inspection, but I’d love to get the inside scoop from someone who knows.

The boutique amp shown has fairly good parts, but several Peavey tube amps use the same grade of parts or higher depending on the part.

I don’t imagine that anyone has the time or inclination to review all of my previous post, but if they did you wouldn’t find negative remarks regarding Peavey. I personally think they have honestly earned their reputation for making great gear for the money, even more so than many of the “big business, big marketing budget” MI manufacturers that also put out good value gear. Just my opinion, of course.

Kudos on the nice “plug” though! I’m not an employee of a MI manufacturer, so I’ve never read the rules on TB regarding it, but can any representative of a MI manufacturer just sign up for a free membership and plug their gear on here?
It’s certainly a lot more cost effective than paying for banner ads!

 

[JimmyM]

I apologize to all the Ampeg people out there, but I cannot agree with that. Not at all.
I will concede that it obviously the most widespread and is all around an excellent amplifier regarding price vs. quality vs. availability, but I think that is the key there: availability. It is a great amp, but it is also WIDELY available.

and why do you think it's widely available? because so many people have bought them over the years. if as many people had bought other tube bass amps, they'de be widely available too.

you make it sound like ampeg has no competition. it's the same false argument used in all the anti-fender threads in basses. plenty of tube amps have been widely available over the years. ampeg's the only one available on a consistent basis for 40 years because people like it, not the other way around. period.

 

[agedhorse]

It’s not unusual for boutique builders to test each component’s value individually, before it gets hand wired into the circuit. Since you obviously are “in the know’ is it your experience that volume producers test each component on production amps before the PCBs get dipped in solder?
I was of the belief that the majority of testing was done on the final chassis, and that warranty claims handle any errant individual flawed components that pass final inspection, but I’d love to get the inside scoop from someone who knows.

Testing the value of a part yields only a fraction of information about it's quality and can be misleading, giving a false sense of security.

For example a capacitor has other parameters that can be far more important to the performance of a product including things like breakdown voltage (usually a "terminal" test as the part fails), leakage current versus time and temperature, lifespan versus voltage and temperature, mechanical noises, microphonics, inductance etc. Every different type of part has different parameters and testing the parts to verify these is uncommon to virtually unheard of, even to those of us who know what they are and how they work.

The primary way manufacturers achieve high reliability is to use parts with a long term track record of reliability, made by manufacturers who support internal QA programs and purchase them only through authorized channels so as to be assured that no opportunities for counterfits occur. Often, these options are not available to builders who buy small quantities of parts through more retail distribution channels. The more "botique" the parts, the more likely they are to be counterfit because the potential for profit is MUCH higher and the scrutiny less scientific.

Buying through authorized channels (manufacturer's distributors, stocking distributors, etc) generally require pretty substantial quantities, but since large and very quality minded industrial and commercial manufacturers (think medical devices, safety equipment) use these channels, the process is generally very, very good at keeping out the riff raff.

I will also suggest that it is indeed very possible to manufacturer an amplifier with PCB construction that is mechanically more reliable and WAY more consistent than hand wiring and terminal boards. While I love the look and feel of hand wiring and I can hand wire with the best of them, I still think PCBs are more reliable. Bob's mention of a shaker table test would more than likely show this to be the case... long leads suspending parts across terminals would look scary under a strobe light or vibration analysis instrumentation. Lead failure due to fatigue would likely be the end result.

 

[pharaohamps]

I'm an EE and I design equipment for use by people who are even harder on gear than musicians, and here's my two cents on the whole handwired vs. PCB thing:

Every time there is a "flying lead" inside a box, whether it is a meter console or measurement instrument or a tube amp, the cost goes up. Every time a worker has to make a wiring connection in a box, there is a chance that the connection will be wrong or not made well enough. Either scenario costs MORE money down the road. Either the problem has to be found during the QA / QC process if there is one, or the problem will be found by the user out in the field, which then costs MORE money. You can see how even simple mistakes add up to lots of $$$ here.

When I design something, I put it on the PCB unless there is a very good reason not to. Most of the time we have our boards populated at an outside contractor who uses CNC pick and place machines that get things right a lot more than they get them wrong. The boards come in at close to 100% right, and I find most of the problems before the boards ever get to the box build. The few problems we end up with are usually human error in the few wires or connectors that have to go to the boards, so go figure.

When I used to design tube amps, I'd put everything on the PCB except tube sockets, power tube screen and grid stopper resistors, and the input + output jacks. I love putting pots on boards, it saves SO much time in assembly and you almost never end up with stuff wired "cattywhompus..." It's less fun for servicing things, but if the high-failure stuff is on flying leads then there's much less of an issue. Most of the problems in tube amps are the tubes themselves.

I love old Hiwatts, and I love production PCB amps. In fact, I might say I love all amps. But my SVT-II non-pro and my Peavey Classic Series 120 are the two that I haul out even though they weigh something like 120 pounds combined. Both are PCB, and both are decidedly non-boutique.

Before you get upset about whether the "modern" PCB amp is less awesome than some handwired deal, think about the $$$ you're paying for it and the likelihood that it's built to a decent quality standard. I've seen more than one "boutique" amp that was held together with chewing gum and duct tape. Solder isn't glue...

Tube or SS, PCB or handwired, just buy the amp you love, and play the hell out of it. That's the best advice I can give.

 

[JimmyM]

Tube or SS, PCB or handwired, just buy the amp you love, and play the hell out of it. That's the best advice I can give.

exactly. i don't care if new svt's use pcb's. they're damn fine and solid amps. same with orange or gk or gb or whoever. as long as they don't make them to where the entire board has to be replaced at an outrageous cost because a resistor goes out.

 

[D.M.N.]

and why do you think it's widely available? because so many people have bought them over the years. if as many people had bought other tube bass amps, they'de be widely available too.

you make it sound like ampeg has no competition. it's the same false argument used in all the anti-fender threads in basses. plenty of tube amps have been widely available over the years. ampeg's the only one available on a consistent basis for 40 years because people like it, not the other way around. period.

Oh, I'm not denying that it's not because it is a well liked, well built, and good sounding amp, and obviously they do have competition. However, I'm saying that they have also been the most widely available big tube amp for 40 years, and I do think that plays a part in there popularity. People have become used to them, they're an institution. As far as "and why do you think it's widely available? because so many people have bought them over the years." I think that could get a bit paradoxical in a way.

Once again, I'm not saying they're bad, but I wouldn't say the pinnacle either. The standard? Yeah, they pretty much are. They're like the P-bass, the classic all around workhorse, which I also think is a case of being both all around good and the most widely and consistently available. And I LOVE P-basses.

exactly. i don't care if new svt's use pcb's. they're damn fine and solid amps. same with orange or gk or gb or whoever. as long as they don't make them to where the entire board has to be replaced at an outrageous cost because a resistor goes out.

And haven't SVT's always had a PCB? Maybe I'm wrong about that. And I'm fine with PCB as long as the knob and jacks aren't permanently attached to where if on needs replacing, the whole thing must.

 

[Nashrakh]

I have to agree and I really like the tone from this amp, but an alternative to the SVT only in a lighter, less power kind of way.

I thought this thread wasn't about SVT alternatives though

 

[agedhorse]

I should also note that PCB's come in different grades and copper weights. Doublesided with heavy played through holes, FR4 or FR4+ (high temp) make for very durable and robust assemblies. I like to see about 2oz copper (2 oz/sq ft/side) which is pretty bullet proof.

There are poor grades too (brown board (phenolic paper), and single sided is more prone to delamination at pads due to high vibrational accelerations .

 

[MAMMOTHvolume]

i'm not sure where this whole pcb argument has come from, no one has said anything against them. Generally a boutique amp maker doesn't have thousands to spend on prototyping pcbs trying to design one which will be as quiet and hum free as just using a turret board and hand wiring it.

Also the quality of components argument, you don't think boutique people are going to pay attention to the quality of components they use either they're obviously going to use the ones they get the consitant best results for not ones that end up sounding different in every amp, they'll be after consistancy because they don't want cheap low tollerance bits messing up their carefully designed amps.

 

[agedhorse]

It's not that they don't WANT to use good components, it's that they have no real idea of what they are getting and where they really came from unless they buy through real wholesale supply channels. There's a TON of counterfit parts out there and the counterfitters target the high profit, botique-ish parts because they are an easy mark.

For example, when we buy semiconductors or capacitors, we buy through a supply chain that has authenticity tracking and proof of supply chain integrity. This means that there are no opportunities for counterfit goods to enter the supply chain as products are shipped in serial numbered, sealed containers with matching bill of lading paperwork that must match the accounting paperwork from the manufacturer. No match means materials got switched or substituted. Of course, the quantities may be in the thousands or tens of thousands which put this process (and the protections it offers) out of reach of most botique builders.

As far as amps sounding different due to components, sure there are value tolerances but a big part of amps sounding different is due to point to point wiring differences too, which PCB's eliminate entirely.

 

[MAMMOTHvolume]

It's not that they don't WANT to use good components, it's that they have no real idea of what they are getting and where they really came from unless they buy through real wholesale supply channels. There's a TON of counterfit parts out there and the counterfitters target the high profit, botique-ish parts because they are an easy mark.

For example, when we buy semiconductors or capacitors, we buy through a supply chain that has authenticity tracking and proof of supply chain integrity. This means that there are no opportunities for counterfit goods to enter the supply chain as products are shipped in serial numbered, sealed containers with matching bill of lading paperwork that must match the accounting paperwork from the manufacturer. No match means materials got switched or substituted. Of course, the quantities may be in the thousands or tens of thousands which put this process (and the protections it offers) out of reach of most botique builders.

As far as amps sounding different due to components, sure there are value tolerances but a big part of amps sounding different is due to point to point wiring differences too, which PCB's eliminate entirely.

as far as wiring goes noise wise, pcbs are really at the bottom of the rung. I don't want to get into this debate, there really is no difference in sound quality between pcb and true PTP one is easier and cheaper to make silent and service.

Personally i've never had any problems with quality of components i've always bought from people i trust and check them when they arrive, i obviously pay a little more than the big companys but it's not a huge loss.

 

[agedhorse]

PCB's are at the bottom of the rung noise-wise? Really? Care to elaborate?

Food for thought... if point to point is really quieter then why would all the manufacturers of the lowest noise (and highest cost, price is no object) mixing consoles and signal procesisng devices and amplifiers use PCB's? I can't think of a single point to point mixing high end console, nor can I think of much the same in signal processing. I'm talking about the good stuff too.

Regarding purchasing of parts from people you trust... that's a good start but like sex, do you know who they or their suppliers may have slept with? It's the verifyable supply chain that larger (quality) manufacturers are concerned about. There are good suppliers who have been duped with counterfit product they were sure were authentic parts.

 

[Stumbo]

Here are a few links you may want to check out for tube amp alternatives:
"Light weight" tube heads
Tube amp techs- recommendations Some of the repair techs build custom amps or can refer you.
Building a tube amp

 

[JayAmel]

Besides any Ampeg, there are two all-tube amps I'd die for :

- Hiwatt DR201
- Fender Bassman 100 Silverface

Both are top notch. Just some lack of power for the Bassman, but what a tone !

 

[MAMMOTHvolume]

PCB's are at the bottom of the rung noise-wise? Really? Care to elaborate?

Food for thought... if point to point is really quieter then why would all the manufacturers of the lowest noise (and highest cost, price is no object) mixing consoles and signal procesisng devices and amplifiers use PCB's? I can't think of a single point to point mixing high end console, nor can I think of much the same in signal processing. I'm talking about the good stuff too.

Regarding purchasing of parts from people you trust... that's a good start but like sex, do you know who they or their suppliers may have slept with? It's the verifyable supply chain that larger (quality) manufacturers are concerned about. There are good suppliers who have been duped with counterfit product they were sure were authentic parts.

valves are much more sensitive to noise than IC's. If your a boutique type company you wont have the money to spend on designing a quiet pcb layout and it's much more effiecent to just go for a turrent board stylee layout.

 

[agedhorse]

valves are much more sensitive to noise than IC's. If your a boutique type company you wont have the money to spend on designing a quiet pcb layout and it's much more effiecent to just go for a turrent board stylee layout.

I disagree. I have developed all tube preamps and power amps (of which thousands have been built) and have found that with PCB techniques I can achieve lower noise products because I have control of more variables, can use layout techniques that are far more suitable to low noise designs, and are repeatable because every wire (trace) routing is exactly the same from unit to unit. I can also reduce and control stray inductances and capacitances better (by a factor of maybe 10) with PCB techniques which leads to better control over circuit variables, thus a more identical product from unit to unit. The other benefit to PCB's using 2 sided plated through holes is that the leads are not so long as to cause fatigue failure and mechanical noises. The reliability is higher too, even on our all tube products we provide a 3 year transferrable warranty.

I do use point to point when developing prototypes and one-offs, or exploring concepts that spark my curiosity, but once I nail down the sensitive parts of a circuit, I then work on the layout to minimize these sensitivities through good layout practices.

As far as IC's not being as sensitive to noise, obviously you haven't worked with any of the high gain, high bandwidth, low noise devices or descrete op-amp designs. They are getting "close" to the theoretical "DC to light" response with noise and distortion well over 80dB down. Any external noise overwhelms the benefits of these devices.

So, you are really saying that botique companies are using turret board style layouts because they can not afford to do the job right using proper layout techniques for PCBs?

 

[Munjibunga]

What's all this talk about polychlorinated biphenyls?