new mesa all tube amp ?????

[sunbeast]

I take it that on the 400+ the pull shift for the bass control shifts the center frequency up, rather than down, like on the D-180?

One of the reasons I'm interested in these new amps from Mesa is that with the M6/M9 preamp, it is quite possible to get a very significant midboost without using the graphic EQ, something that's difficult on my D-180 (despite how awesome the D-180 sounds, the EQ section is just not that useful to me... the mid knob may as well not even be there).

The 400+ Bass shift control moved the frequency up into the low mids, and the Treble control shift moved the frequency down into the high mids. On most amps I will leave Bass and Treble pretty close to flat (usually a little cut in bass), and do most of my adjusting in the mids anyway so these shifts worked very well for me. I didn't find the inherent voice of the 400+ to be "scooped" when these shifts were engaged at all- in fact it was about the most mid-present amp I have owned until owning the M6.

+1 to excitement over the mids aspect of the M6/M9- mids are more sculptable (and characterizable) with that amp than any other I've ever had without the use of parametric EQ because of the 5 different Voices. My D-180 didnt have the Graphic EQ, or I probably would have kept it!

IIRC they changed a few things about the preamp and took out the weird master/volume setup of the D-180 in the 400 and 400+, as well as the latter two being more powerful.

I found the Bass control on my D-180 to not really have an extreme amount of range even with the Deep function- it really seemed voiced ideally for chunky guitar, though it did work really well for bass if you didn't need a lot of EQ or low end (I got by just fine with it because I liked the inherent tone I had). I felt like the Bass control worked more like a low-mid control for me, especially when I experimented using channel 1 instead of 2, though there was no way to really control the high mids.

 

[Muziekschuur]

It'll be interesting to hear what you guys think of the new Mesa Boogie tube amps...

 

[MSUsousaphone]

Yeah, I don't know about the Mesa being flat, just that seemed to be what MSU was trying to say.

No no no. Sorry. I was meaning more of just tone. Character and coloring of the sound. Not EQ.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Gentlemen,
What is the "street" value of a good running condition Buster 200 in a "head" version?

I generally see good condition Buster's going for about $700 - $800.

 

[Sunnmon]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the insight and sorry for derailing the thread a wee bit. Well, at least I kept it CIVIL and MESA.
Now I have some food for thought and will maybe decide to pull the trigger on that Buster.
Awaiting the new Mesa line like the rest of TalkBass.
Rock on bass Bro's

sunnmon

 

[JGR]

In the 400 (and the 400+ if their preamps are the same), the bass shift is actually changing the value of the second stage's cathode bypass cap, so it alters the point at which the gain boost rolls off, extending it into the lower frequencies. In the normal position, gain is boosted above 1k in that stage. With the shift engaged, everthing down to around 10Hz is getting boosted. It changes what the EQ has to play with, but it isn't involved with the EQ itself. The treble shift changes the value of the treble cap in the tonestack which affects the shape of the midrange scoop and frequency range that the treble control operates over. The bright switch just adds in/removes the cap across the volume pot, which is the same as the ones on the gain pot in guitar amps - gives a brighter sound at lower settings and effectively disappers if you max the control.

Buying matched tubes is only of limited use because they will drift apart over time, and with the non-adjustable fixed bias, there's nothing you can do about it to dial it back in.

In these amps, the output tranny is farily small so it saturates quicker and naturally rolls off a lot of low frequencies.

 

[BurningSkies]

In the 400 (and the 400+ if their preamps are the same), the bass shift is actually changing the value of the second stage's cathode bypass cap, so it alters the point at which the gain boost rolls off, extending it into the lower frequencies. In the normal position, gain is boosted above 1k in that stage. With the shift engaged, everthing down to around 10Hz is getting boosted. It changes what the EQ has to play with, but it isn't involved with the EQ itself. The treble shift changes the value of the treble cap in the tonestack which affects the shape of the midrange scoop and frequency range that the treble control operates over. The bright switch just adds in/removes the cap across the volume pot, which is the same as the ones on the gain pot in guitar amps - gives a brighter sound at lower settings and effectively disappers if you max the control.

Buying matched tubes is only of limited use because they will drift apart over time, and with the non-adjustable fixed bias, there's nothing you can do about it to dial it back in.

In these amps, the output tranny is farily small so it saturates quicker and naturally rolls off a lot of low frequencies.

Thanks Gustav, that pretty much jibes with what I remember from the years I had mine. I'm glad it works for the people who love the amp, but it wasn't for me. While many wish to think it was user error on my part, I'm more than familiar with this tone stack (having no less than 4 amps in the house with it now and even more that have passed through my hands in the past several decades), and I worked my 400+ long and hard on a daily basis for a few years before coming to the conclusion that it wasn't the amp for me.

Back to the new Mesa tube amp...I'm interested to see how they implement some of their more current design aspects into what appears to be their 'traditional' 6L6 workings. Maybe they'll take some of these kinds of discussions into account when it hits the streets.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I think some bassists like to run their SVT's muddy but I don't find them to be muddy by default. They do have a kind of resonance around the midrange that can sound like they are indistinct compared to a Mesa or some other amps. I think it sounds really cool to dime the mids and use a bass like a stingray or jazz to get really aggressive sounds. The Mesa all tube amps tend to have a harsher grind than svt heads. I'll be honest it tooke years to dial in my Mesa bass 400. It sounds great but it isn't nearly as intuitive as an svt. It also weighs half as much!

 

[sunbeast]

While many wish to think it was user error on my part, I'm more than familiar with this tone stack (having no less than 4 amps in the house with it now and even more that have passed through my hands in the past several decades), and I worked my 400+ long and hard on a daily basis for a few years before coming to the conclusion that it wasn't the amp for me. .

I was merely pointing out what made it different than a standard Fender tone stack, which I have also played in many incarnations- though only a couple specifically as a bassist. The D-180 sounds much more like a typical Fender tone stack, but I didn't find that to be the voice of the 400+ at all, which I found to very mid-heavy when dialed in. I dig that it wasn't the amp for you though and I believe you when you say it- I recall reading several posts from you about the 400+ over the years, both when you had it and after. Again we are probably looking for different kinds of mid-forward definition in our tones.

Contrary to JGR's summation, I stand by my experience that the Bass pull shifts did in fact affect the EQ noticeably even when set at what should be flat (assuming my knobs were on right ). His explanation of what it does makes sense however, and explains why I generally found myself cutting the lowest bands on the Graphic in conjunction with using the Bass shift. I would generally have the Treble control at around 3 or 4 and shifted, which gave a pretty strong upper midrange grind to the tone as well.

I also commonly find on threads about the 400+ that the users often haven't tried any/many different tubes, so I relayed my experience that those made a huge difference in my case. Preamp tubes are fairly cheap, and just among the 10 or so I had around to try I found very strong differences in the 400+, moreso than with most bass amps I have fiddled with. It is obviously very expensive to experiment with whole sets of power tubes, but again it made a huge difference in this amp. 6550 users have a good decently solid set of tubes in the standard Sovtek offering, but that isn't really the case for the 6L6s at least for this amp. I used the same Shuguang 6L6s for years before they noticeably sounded different, at least as long as any set of comparable "budget" tubes would last in either of my SVTs even with its bias adjustments. Could be an anomally though I suppose...

 

[BurningSkies]

Yeah, you're right...JGR doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[sunbeast]

Yeah, you're right...JGR doesn't know what he's talking about.

Dang- what do you have to prove? For someone apparently irked for what you call me "wishing to believe" that your experiences were because of user error, you sure are quick to turn that around on someone else. I don't know your story or credentials nor those of JGR, nor did I question them. There are so many "experts" on the internet that I know to read anything critically until I have real world experience to back it up. I respect his apparently flawless knowledge of the workings of my old amp and I didn't say he was wrong, but I trust my ears enough to know that on my amp pulling the shift did in fact change the tone, even with the Bass control at 2. Maybe "2" wasn't "flat" on my amp? Does anyone know for sure that 2 was flat on any 400+? The same way that changing the frequency pot on the semi-parametric EQ on my friends old Mesa 600 would change the tone even with the all the Gain controls on "0".

 

[sunbeast]

Actually- rereading what JGR said about the Bass control, it sounds like my experience was in fact consistent with the way it works. He said the Bass "shift" is essentially adding gain onto the lower end (below 1K) of the frequency spectrum regardless of where the Bass pot is set- meaning that engaging the shift is in fact boosting the lows and low mids together. I think I misread it to begin with (I read it as extending the frequency range affected by the Bass control vs. just a static boost of low end), and it helps explain why engaging that shift made the character so much different to my ears than the D-180.

 

[BurningSkies]

Dang- what do you have to prove? For someone apparently irked for what you call me "wishing to believe" that your experiences were because of user error, you sure are quick to turn that around on someone else. I don't know your story or credentials nor those of JGR, nor did I question them. There are so many "experts" on the internet that I know to read anything critically until I have real world experience to back it up. I respect his apparently flawless knowledge of the workings of my old amp and I didn't say he was wrong, but I trust my ears enough to know that on my amp pulling the shift did in fact change the tone, even with the Bass control at 2. Maybe "2" wasn't "flat" on my amp? Does anyone know for sure that 2 was flat on any 400+? The same way that changing the frequency pot on the semi-parametric EQ on my friends old Mesa 600 would change the tone even with the all the Gain controls on "0".

You've blamed my experience with a Mesa 400+ (a several year experience) on EVERYTHING you can think of from my mis-understanding of the amp & its EQ, bad tubes, the wrong tubes, etc., etc., etc. Besides just coming to terms with the fact that it just didn't end up sounding great to me. There was nothing wrong with the amp. There was nothing wrong with the tubes. It isn't my first time at the amp rodeo. It just didn't sound great to me. There was a characteristic to the upper mids I didn't like. There was the mid-scoop built into the EQ below that no matter what you want to think. I know tubes. I have dozens of different 12AX7's to choose from...from 'holy grail' tubes to common everyday issue stuff. I didn't like the end implementation of the amp. It always had some slight not-cleanness to it. It always felt a bit cold (not just mine but any number of them I've played). The DI on my just sucked in a variety of ways.

You do realize that JGR has worked with tube amps way longer than loads of guys who do it for a living, and has had his hands inside the amp we're talking about and knows how they work, right? That he's got enough knowledge about tube gear to build his own from scratch and sell them?


I understand you like yours, and I'm glad, but you act like anyone who isn't on the same page has no idea what they're talking about.

 

[sunbeast]

Not quite- I didn't "blame" your experience on anything. I just offered suggestions and counterpoints to your experiences based on common misunderstandings of this amp and my own experiences- you know "discussion", no condescension or hostility intended. Like I said, I don't know your life story and shouldn't be expected to know how well versed you are in anything before posting on Talkbass- ditto to JGR (am I expected to know that JGR is a tube amp expert? I must have been living in a cave or something? And did I even say that anything he said was fundamentally wrong? No). This is the internet- unfortunately the majority of us will remain strangers in the real world. I don't read a bio about everybody I talk with on here, nor espouse as fact everything somebody claiming to be an expert says. Now I can add to my knowledge base about TB member "BurningSkies" that he certainly knows everything there is to know about the function and useage of a 400+.

I certainly don't have a problem with you not liking it- it's not my "holy grail" amp either. I don't even own one anymore nor do I plan to buy another any time soon. Probably like you, I am continually on the quest for that always changing "holy grail" tone- that's why I spend too much time on a discussion forum about bass gear.

...uh, friends?

 

[BurningSkies]

Not quite- I didn't "blame" your experience on anything. I just offered suggestions and counterpoints to your experiences based on common misunderstandings of this amp and my own experiences- you know "discussion", no condescension or hostility intended. Like I said, I don't know your life story and shouldn't be expected to know how well versed you are in anything before posting on Talkbass- ditto to JGR (am I expected to know that JGR is a tube amp expert? I must have been living in a cave or something? And did I even say that anything he said was fundamentally wrong? No). This is the internet- unfortunately the majority of us will remain strangers in the real world. I don't read a bio about everybody I talk with on here, nor espouse as fact everything somebody claiming to be an expert says. Now I can add to my knowledge base about TB member "BurningSkies" that he certainly knows everything there is to know about the function and useage of a 400+.

I certainly don't have a problem with you not liking it- it's not my "holy grail" amp either. I don't even own one anymore nor do I plan to buy another any time soon. Probably like you, I am continually on the quest for that always changing "holy grail" tone- that's why I spend too much time on a discussion forum about bass gear.

For a good explanation and 'visual' of the Fender tone stack (and a comparison to the Baxandall tone stack) check this:
http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/tonestack.html

...uh, friends?

Its cool.

You should check out what JGR does...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/jgrs-custom-built-rock-bass-tube-preamp-done-709019/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/reiner-jgr-bass-preamp-test-drive-750797/

The cool thing is that there are a few guys on TB who have experience and knowledge with the scary science. The other one who comes to mind quickest is TB'er Passinwind, who has forgotten more about amp design than most of us will ever know.

I really wanted to love my 400+, but it just wasn't there. It soured me on the Fender style tone stack for a good long time, and only recently have I found one that sounds really good to me, the Kern IP777 preamp, which has some really nice tweaks to the traditional design. It has all of the GOOD aspects of what tubes can do, without most of the negatives...except I still find it a bit 'soft' in the mids. I should have the 'new' ultimate tube pre on hand...one of the first 10 of the Jule Amps' Monique rackmounts, which uses 6SL7's and a tube rectifier...closer to an Ampeg design. With those two, I should have most of the 'classic' styles of tube tone, but with a 3000 watt power stage.

For a nice visual explanation of a Fender tone stack and a comparison to the Baxandall, check this:
http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/tonestack.html

 

[sunbeast]

I have actually met Passinwind in passing (pardon the pun) between songs at a wine bar he was playing- very nice humble dude who lives just down the highway from Portland. He was playing upright through a crazy and incredibly nice looking home-made rig that sounded great and I knew immediately that "this dude is legit!"

I did peruse the JGR pre thread once or twice soon after he first posted his idea, but didn't realize it had come to fruition so quickly/successfully. I have enjoyed his video comparisons of other things in the past- like all the Berg NV cabs A/B/C'ed. I try not to spend too much time in the Amplifier sub-forum because its the one that could really get me in trouble financially, and I'm getting more to the point where I can get tones I like from most any amp and maybe an outboard preamp. The exception to this of course is power tube saturation/coloration/dynamics, which I still want at times and haven't been able to really get to my liking without actual power tubes since finally selling off all my tube amps when I was in the mood for something different (the Mesa Walkabout has been close enough when I really need it for now)- hence the interest in these new Mesa buggers!

I have played through a handful of vintage Fenders (and owned an old 50 watt Bassman that I loved for years) when I was in a band with a couple vintage guitar amp freaks for a couple of years- it was cool being around people as dorky about tone as I was at the time. I played through and recorded through a handful of different guitar amps from their collections (a Fender Showman, Bassmans, a Twin Reverb, and a couple Marshalls, an Orange, Sound City, etcetera!) in those days with both bass and guitar (and baritone guitar), so also got pretty familiar with their inherent strengths and weaknesses- that was when I first started fiddling with external preamps, and the 400+ was the first amp I didn't really feel a great need for external EQ with (until I of course took that always expected unexpected tonal leap and decided I was done with tubes and wanted nothing but clean punch for long enough to sell off the last of my tube amps!). I think part of our conflicting experience might be that I was almost always intentionally playing my 400+ into varying levels of light to medium overdrive, whereas you were playing mostly clean (if I understand you correctly). I guess part of the beauty of the 400+ for overdrive is the smaller transformer, because as JGR mentioned it tends to have less overall bass response/headroom than a larger transformer would allow when the amp is pushed- so when pushed hard the mids become very predominant (as compared to my old SVT, which could rumble pretty hard when cranked). When I say that it is one of, if not my favorite sounding amp all around, it is that pushed hard sound I'm referencing in my mind- necessary when playing in a band with two souped up Plexi clones cranked into crunch most of the time.

Anyways, I'm happy to stop derailing this thread. Can't wait til these things are finally released!

 

[MSUsousaphone]

This thread can't be railed until July. Heh. Keep on keeping on.

So....stupid question....the quoted price for this would be MSRP, right? So some places would be cool enough to get lower on the price? Wonder if a Mesa rep is the way to get the best deal....and how one gets a Mesa rep....

I'm still way undecided on this...or a Baer when it comes out....or a Reeves Custom 250....or if this is all just wishful thinking and I need to just stay with my Bass 400+ and save the money for the inbound kids.

 

[mikeswals]

So....stupid question....the quoted price for this would be MSRP, right? So some places would be cool enough to get lower on the price? Wonder if a Mesa rep is the way to get the best deal...

When it comes to Mesa pricing, MSRP is the selling price! Mesa doesn't allow discount on any current products. A dealer can discount discontinued stuff.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I wouldn't say the 400/400+ sound cold. More that they sound liek they have a lot of neg feedback. It makes them "flatter" and more hifi than most all tube heads. But it also gives them that hard to control overdrive that is a bit too nasty for some folks.
I actually like how they get an almost exploding kind of fuzzy tone. It seems like at lower levels the overdrive is kind of annoying sounding, after the point of neg feedback is to eliminate non-linearity. But when you really pile on the gain and usa an active bass, ahem, Stingray, it get's pretty nice. I also find that it is the good kind of distortion that blends well in a band setting without stepping on the guitarists toes too much. In fact it barely sounds fuzzy at all when we are playing. When there is a bass only break (bass solo!) we are often surprised at how grindy it is.
I once had the lead guitarist ask me to turn off the fuzz box when I was doing the break down on our one epic fairy-metal number. I told him that is what I am like all the time, I just pile on a little more bass or mid from the stingray for certain parts of songs.

With a DBA Fuzz War it was truly the Voice of God. Al Cisneros eat your heart out.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I don't consider the 400 series cold, but I understand why some may use that as an adjective. It's not a very "wooly" sounding amp at all.

I've always gone back and forth between the 12AU7 mod. Currently, I have an AX7 in the driver position. At the beginning of the year, I retubed my 400+ with JJs, replaced a bunch of screen-grid resistors, and started using some very efficient Berg AE410s. The result is that I have a crazy-loud rig. However, I notice that on the Master, if I'm below 1, it's not loud enough and I don't get much sustain. Then, if I get to about 1.75, it's freakin' blowing my drummer off his throne and almost overpowering the FOH. So I'm thinking about throwing the 12AU7 in again and seeing if I can get a little less steep of a curve on the Master.