New multi-fx concept... (small, powerful, midi)

[aledeville]

Hi everyone

I am wishing for a multi-fx and wanted to share my wish with you. Maybe there are some who would want the same.

I'm thinking for the average bass player, not the breeders club. It should have a small footprint, needs to be powerful in terms of dsp horse power, it also needs to be in a realistic price range (if not, it should do everything else then), Midi-capability.
I know, the Midi thing is not something for the average bass player, but with a chance to access the presets and effects with a midi controller the size you need, this is so much more versatile for the specific needs of different bass players. Have a powerful multi-fx and choose the controller of your liking. Some use a FCB1010, some the midi-mouse...


- Eventide H9
Overly expensive, however qualitative on the highest level. Full midi compatibility, also concerning the clock. Very good.
As always there is a but: Only one effect at the time.

- Line6 M5
The effects and the Midi is a big plus (don't know about the clock), however the footprint isn't that small and it uses quite some power. The main negative point is again like with the H9, it's only capable of one effect at the time.

- Zoom MS-60B
4 fx at the time! Ampsims! Cabsims! And dirt cheap! Footprint! However, the big negative thing here is the access to the presets. You have the luxury of four presets, but no clever access to them.
There may be a solution:


I'd love to have a combination of these pedals. The Midi-capability of the H9 and the M9, and four fx at the time taken from the Zooms. Ampsims and cabsims would be great too, but this isn't my main focus. With the sims, an additional XLR output only makes sense - the cabsim put only on that signal.

I want a small but powerful multi-fx engine that replaces most of the pedals for the average bassplayer, but combined with a clever layout for accessing the patches/presets/fx. I mean, I love my MS-60B, but no matter how clever you lay out your presets, it's a hassle not having everything at the feet. I don't want to think between the songs what I will possibly use in the jam that directly comes after the next tune.

To be honest, I'm hoping for Zoom. Within a short period of time they kind of revolutionized the fx business. I assume they have the resources to pursue this idea. The price of an Axe-Fx looks ridiculous compared to the Zoom. Of course, the Axe can do so much more, but how much more should the Zoom be able to do until it serves the same purpose as the Axe does?

What do you think? Am I the only one looking for a such a multi-fx? I mean, I see some H9's on the boards, even though this thing costs a massive amount of dollars and is quite limited in regard to serve you as a multi-fx unit.

 

[bassbrad]

I really like the idea of a midi controller for the Zoom pedals, but the Disaster Area with sub costs more than the effect, 2.5 times in the case of an MS Series pedal.

 

[jimfist]

I agree with the OP that there is a gap in the market where it seems like ZOOM (or somebody else) needs to take the ball and run with it to produce a small footprint MIDI capable pedal that functions the way real gigging musicians would like it to function (ZOOM breaks my heart in this respect). ZOOM has come out with great bass products, with excellent selection of processing and effects, but totally drops the ball with respect to "next level" functionality (lack of MIDI control, awkward interface for live use, etc.). I suppose if you don't need dedicated bass amp/cab sims, the G3x (non-MIDI) allows for the greatest flexibility and control, with 3 stomp switches, up to 5 simultaneous virtual FX stomps, bulit-in exp pedal, and external switch/pedal input. That's a fair amount of goodies in a $200 pedal.

The price of an Axe-Fx looks ridiculous compared to the Zoom. Of course, the Axe can do so much more, but how much more should the Zoom be able to do until it serves the same purpose as the Axe does?

Whoah...I'm a happy owner of the AxeFxII and a few ZOOM products (B-3, B1Xon, MS60B), but let's not get carried away comparing apples to aardvarks. Necessary end-user functionality is a totally subjective thing. ZOOM is an entirely different target audience than the AxeFx. I own both, and put them both to good use depending on what the need is. Simply put, the ZOOM products as they currently exist will NEVER be able to "serve the same purpose" as the AxeFx...at least for me. That doesn't mean that I'm doing incredibly complex things with the AxeFx all the time (even though I do), it's just that the AxeFx offers a level of flexibility, detail, and sonic quality that is practically impossible to replicate in any other single, stand-alone piece of gear.

My purchase of the AxeFx and ZOOM products have allowed me to sell of many thousands of dollars worth of stomps, rack processors/fx, amps, specialty boxes...you name it. It is worth mentioning that the high cost of the AxeFx appears daunting, but in my case, was perhaps THE most liberating purchase I've made...ever. It is a complex product that simplified my life in many ways.

Now, truth be told, I use my ZOOM B-3 stomp a lot more on the gig than my AxeFxII rig because the B3 is the better tool for the job for what those gigs are. But there are times when there simply is no other tool in a single unit that can do what and AxeFx can do when used with or without a MIDI control pedal.

 

[Feral Feline]

From the looks of the size of the Disaster Area device, and the price mentioned, it'd be easier and cheaper to buy three MS-60B pedals...?

 

[Rockin Mike]

Can't beat the Line 6 M13 for a powerful intuitive interface.
over 100 effects assignable to any of 12 footswitches of which 4 can be active simultaneously.
The sacrifices are it's larger footprint and power requirements.
Of course, it's a lot smaller and lighter than a pedalboard with 12 pedals.

 

[ArvindJayaram]

But there are times when there simply is no other tool in a single unit that can do what and AxeFx can do when used with or without a MIDI control pedal.

I was just about to suggest a Kemper to the OP. But again, it's super expensive.

How about a Zoom B3, which seems to have gotten quite a lot of good attention. Small footprint and incredibly functional. A plus point is that I hear it can cop a Sansamp Bass Driver DI to a T.

 

[Teijo K.]

Something like this, in a reasonable price range, and the Zoom product line would be pretty close to being the next thing in effects. Another idea would be modular digital effects. Why not make a multi effects pedal, where you could have AM transformer in the beginning of the chain, and MA transformer in the end, and we could add digital "pedals" in the middle as much as is needed.

 

[aledeville]

Whoah... Simply put, the ZOOM products as they currently exist will NEVER be able to "serve the same purpose" as the AxeFx...at least for me. That doesn't mean that I'm doing incredibly complex things with the AxeFx all the time (even though I do), it's just that the AxeFx offers a level of flexibility, detail, and sonic quality that is practically impossible to replicate in any other single, stand-alone piece of gear.

Of course, the Zoom is no Axe! However, the question was, what the Zoom additionally has to be able to do, in order to serve as a stand-alone preamp and an effects engine. Look at the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and imagine a better version of it from Zoom, in a pedal twice the size it has now. Controllable via software would be great too (like the Source Audio, the SuperSynth, the Axe...). Of course the Axe has tons of options, but is that what the average bass player needs? Sometimes it's even too much for heavy tweakers...

Right at the moment, the Zoom is not ready to take over a preamp and some effects. At least not for me - not even due to the sound, but mostly because of the poopy accessability of the parameters and the limited switching possibilities.

 

[jimfist]

Right at the moment, the Zoom is not ready to take over a preamp and some effects. At least not for me - not even due to the sound, but mostly because of the ****** accessability of the parameters and the limited switching possibilities.

Yes, of course the ZOOM stuff is more geared toward the average player. The AxeFx is a much more elegant solution for those who can afford it, and who are looking for elegant solutions...which is why I use the ZOOM B-3 for most of my straight-ahead rock gigs. We are in full agreement here. The ZOOM is just a short step away from having something really great for bassists, but has missed the mark on a couple levels as you've described. When I use the ZOOM B3 as my preamp + effects, it is an uneasy truce dealing with the clunky interface...it's a drag, but I manage.

 

[Teijo K.]

I dont want to use anything from Zoom alone. I tried to use only the MS-60B but it wasnt working for me. Neither the B3 alone would work for me. But together with an added dirt pedal in the middle I can live with them. A message to Zoom corp. would be, that if a product is getting modified by a lot of users, there might be something wrong in it. And the Zoom interfaces are modified a lot. There is the ashbass school of hardware modification, and that other adding midi via USB. I am planning on doing the ashbass patch select mod. for the B3.

 

[jimfist]

This layout (based obviously on the Line6 FBV Shortboard MKII) would really fit the bill for me. Dedicated patch select up/down, 5 buttons for stomps on/off, plus a programmable expression pedal. Small footprint, but not too small, and enough on board switching to get through all but the most demanding of effects-heavy gigs. So much of this depends on the programming of the switches. If the switches could be set up with the option of "Snapshots" within a preset - that is, each snapshot switch remembers the on/off STATE of all the effects in the preset, rather than just individual stomp functionality, much like the AxeFx & FX8 - then that would help greatly. Amp modeleing, effects, cab simulation (with 3rd party IR capability) MIDI capability and programmable via USB would put it over the top. Sell it for $599 and I'm there!

 

[aledeville]

Nice suggestion, I think we're getting closer

@Teijo K.
I wouldn't say that the Zooms are being modified a lot...

 

[jimfist]

Purely out of coincidence, I ordered a TC Helicon Voice Live 3 to see if I could use it effectively for some of my pub and cover band gigs, primarily for the vocal processing effects. I've always been intrigued by these vocal processors but haven't owned one. Plus I've always thought that TC Electronic has made some very good sounding gear.

The reason I bring it up is because the Voice Live 3 could be very useful within the niche we are discussing. It may seem like an odd choice at first blush, but I always keep an open mind about such things. The only real down side of this unit is that it is a couple hundred $$ too spendy for the purposes we're discussing. Mine was a factory refurbish, $629 from AMS. You see them new retailing at $799US.

All that said, it breaks up the vocal processor section, guitar processing section, and looper into three totally discrete areas (layer), each easily switchable via a mode or "layer" switch, and the overall switch programming functions are very well-thought out and flexible.

For example, you have what they call a "HIT" button, which functions just like the "Snapshot" function described before, where the on/off states of all effects is remembered depending on whether the HIT button is engaged or not. The most common effects have dedicated buttons that are always available (like stomps) but can be re-assigned to any of the available effects. On top of that, there is a STEP button that allows you make changes to your effects on/off states according to the parts of the song (Intro-V-CH-V-CH-BR-CH-End), and program each section as a sequential STEP. I believe you can also change presets as STEP sections (however, there can be significant latency lag while new presets are loading). Add to that a fully blown Looper that actually has programmable loop MEMORY, so you can pre-program some loops, power down, and have available in a preset ready for the gig via switch trigger.

MIDI implementation is fairly comprehensive, in/out, and it has 1/4" expression pedal plus footswitch (they have a couple of switch boxes) input. Added bonus is that the 6 "stomp" switches can be configured as either latching or momentary....very, very nice!

As for the guitar models translating to bass, IMHO most of the presets and stock amp types are geared for guitar or acoustic guitar, and there is only ONE algorithm, but the amp block parameters are very interesting and a different approach. You have both pre and post gain, as well as pre and post EQ sections that are fully parametric. This allows you to pre-treat the EQ to influence the onset of preamp drive "break up" distortion, and then re-EQ the back end to compensate. With a little fussing, I got some usable sounds within 15 minutes or so. If you have no need for amp modeling, then the other guitar layer effects are typical of TC Electronic and sound very good, though perhaps not as comprehensive as a dedicated box like the ZOOM B-3 effects.

I also downloaded the latest firmware using VoiceSupport, and it was seamless. The computer interface editing features are very limited, allowing you to just juggle around presets, make backups and import presets, but it's better than nothing.

I love processors that have lots of flexibility, though they tend to have steeper learning curves. I wish ZOOM would take a page out of TC's ease of operation playbook and upgrade their product lines to function the way this pedal does. I'm more blown away by the comprehensive interfacing and switch function design engineering than I am by the sounds, but I've only logged a couple hours on the piece.

...FWIW...

 

[Hugh Person]

Why not just take all your pedals(tubish, analog etc) add midi controlled potentiometers, add simple midi controlled looper, psu, put all that stuff into rack enclosure and bam you've got the best sounding all analog/tube multi-fx with a price tag like ten times more the sum of all used parts. Damn! I need simple noob-friendly all-pedals-to-rack-unit-conversion kit asap!

 

[jimfist]

Why not just take all your pedals(tubish, analog etc) add midi controlled potentiometers, add simple midi controlled looper, psu, put all that stuff into rack enclosure and bam you've got the best sounding all analog/tube multi-fx with a price tag like ten times more the sum of all used parts. Damn! I need simple noob-friendly all-pedals-to-rack-unit-conversion kit asap!

LOL. Pretty funny.

 

[aledeville]

Why funny? Why is the Triaxis Preamp the only one that does things like this? It can't be that difficult...

 

[Swimming Bird]

I could see TC pulling this off in something like the big ditto format (doesn't even need a screen), especially if most patch editing was done by computer. Maybe some sort of midi control via the USB port would be feasible.

 

[jimfist]

well, honeymoon over with the Voice live 3...sending it back. Oh well. The perfect unit for the guitarist/lead singer, but as a bassist/backup vocalist, I've concluded that this just isn't the piece for me. There's a lot to like about the unit, but...for bass...meh. Between the Zoom stuff's ease of use and bass-centric choices, and the AxeFx's everything, I'm sure I've been spoiled.

....as you were...

 

[ferdinandstrat]

Aint there a way for the B3 to be controlled via MIDI?

This is why ZOOM should've made a B5!

 

[aledeville]

@Swimming Bird You mean like the toneprint thing? For sure, TC has the know-how, but I somehow don't see this happen. The Zoom's are much closer to the solution. The MS-60B is already midi controllable via USB, but why not just make ist easily integrable into a midi setup?

@jimfist
I think this is just a thing of standards. Now that you use material of such a high level, you don't want to go back to something that hasn't really an advantage over the things you already have. Especially not if it's still over 600 dollars.