New PA systems for starting bands

[totallybacan]

I figured that since not only am I in the market for a PA system for my band, there are many other people looking at purchasing a first PA system without much advice and info. Then there are a ton of threaads about "How can I make system X with 2 speakers sound like system Y that a certain professional band uses." I think it could definitely help if there was some basic, applicable-in-almost-every-scenario, information that first time buyers should keep in mind.

For example, the order of which things should be bought.

What's the point of a tweeterless 215 without subs or monitors?​

Are all-in-one setups any good or will they just come back and bite you in the a$$?

"I bought a powered 8 channel mixer that came with mains and mics, but I don't get why it isn't loud"​

I think, IMO, that there should be somesort of list as too what is a good starting point and where to go from there in an attempt to keep money wasted as close to null as possible and keep improvement in sound constantly up.

 

[JackANSI]

This is going to be a slippery thread


I'll go first. The best option is to hire professional sound people who have the equipment. You'll sound great, you don't have to move anything, and its way easier for the band (from gigging out, to breaking up).

If you have to do it yourself for some reason..

(This won't apply to anyone except a bar band or similar size group, both in the venue (crowd) or in the band.)

You want:
1. Reliability
2. Clarity
3. Easy setup and strike
4. To hear yourself
5. To let your fans hear you

It sounds backwards, but ok..

5. You'll have a hard time making your fans happy listening to you if..
4. You can't hear whats going on with the rest of the band and you sound like crap because of it, and when...
3. You are so freaking tired from schlepping in a PA that is far too large for the needs of the venue.

as for #2 and #1, you need those no matter what..


If you're a bar band that sticks mainly to places that seat less than 250 and encounter house systems for anything larger, a small 3-way setup is ideal, IMO. (3-way isn't what you hope to get at the end of the night, it means the main signal is broken up, by frequency, into three groups.)

For example: Two Carvin LS1503's (biamped) with LS1801's. One really crystal clear, high quality amp for the MF/HF side of the 1503's, and your choice for the LF and Subs (I'd get something as good as possible, but powerful first and foremost). Get a DBX Driverack and you'll have all the EQ's, flexible crossover, and limiters to keep it in check and sounding good out front.

For monitors: two Carvin LS1202M's for up front and a LS1502 for the drummer with one more power amp.

Without a mixer you'll only be at about $2400 in speakers, $2000 in amps, $500 in signal processing, and $200 in cabling if you make the speakons yourself. $5500 (including $400 budget for racks) total for something thats gonna last and sound good. I think you'd get about $2500-3000 back when you sold it too.

You can also fit that in most trailers of the size I see bands use and still have room for your instruments, drums, and amps. (You could fit all this into a small van too or break it up between two or three cars) Only takes about 45 minutes of hustle to set it up and break it down.

What mixer you use in this example will depend on how many channels you need, which will also dictate the size of the snake you need.



As for a list of things, almost everything I can think of requires some kind of prior knowledge to understand or operate it... Knowledge that if you have, you won't need to ask the question... Sound reinforcement is something that is best learned from an experienced person, in-person, on-the-job.

 

[RickenBoogie]

So, is this PA something that will follow you to gigs, or just for a private rehearsal space. Huge difference. If it's a pro sound system you need, for gigging, prepare to spend in the $10,000. area. Otherwise, if it's for practice, and not gigs, you can get by easily with an 8 channel powered mixer, and a pair of 12" PA cabs. A practice room PA could be had for not much over 1K.

 

[BassikLee]

There are a few different schools of thought on the "band PA" thing. I tend to agree with the "hire a sound company" thing, but then I own a small sound company, so....

OK, what I have seen done on the low end: Mackie or some other powered mixer, capable of mains and monitors. Add in four matched speakers, two for mains, two for monitors, stands, cables, mics, etc. New, you're looking at maybe $2000 minimum to put together a "vocals only" system. I suggest matched mains/mons for a few reasons. Not the least of which is that you'll have spares for your mains, should a cab die on a gig.
A variation of the above would be a small mixer with built in FX, and four matched, self powered speakers.

The next step up is capable of handling a full band, in a small club, ballroom, whatever. Small digital mixer (yamaha 01v, 01v96, Presonus StudioLive), self powered mains and monitors. My rig of this size is either the 01v or 01V96. Mains are Yorkville EF500P tops, over Yorkville LS800P subs. Monitors are QSC HPR 122 cabs. Mics are mostly Sennheiser in this rig, though I do have some audix drum stuff too. New, a rig like this will run, well, let's do some math: StudioLive is $2K Two each, 500P and 800P will run about $5600. Toss in four QSC HPR 122 boxes, $3600, and we are at $11,200. We need mics, lots of mic cables, a rack/case for the mixer, and cabling to get power to the cabinets. Call it $15K for a very capable small system. Those subs will easily keep up with TWO tops each, so one could (have, and do often) run two 500P tops per side, flown, and stick two subs together, run off an aux, and do "polite" PA for upwards of a thousand people. Not crazy rip your face off loud stuff, but polite, bread and butter (for we sound folks) stuff.

From there, I just sold most of my bigger stuff. I have a buddy with a 28 element line array (ok, 16 tops, 12 subs) and a 48ch digital desk, etc. I call him when I need PA for shows I can't do in house.

SO, does a band spend $2K to run vocals only?? Does a band spend $15K, then have to haul, store, set up, and run a decent little rig?? Does a band pay a small sound company do handle that? I don't do club stuff anymore, PA wise. Not nearly enough money in it. I do small outdoor stuff, and ballroom stuff. My "1300 system" which is the EF500P over LS800P, starts at about a thousand bux a night. I am sure bar bands can't pay anywhere near that. That said, in any city in this fine country of ours, there are "sound guys" running around with "decent" systems, lots of "bought it all at GC, on credit, now I need to pay for it" guys willing to work for $250-400 a night.

A few too many words in the above, I am certain...

 

[OtterOnBass]

Basically it's like buying anything, if you don't know anything about it you will get ripped off. Think car sales. Here's some options:
1. Do the research yourself, find out as much about the physics as you can, compare that to what's for sale and what matches your needs.
2. Find someone who's knowledgeable to give you that guidance.
3. Go to a store with a good reputation and find someone trustworthy to set you up.

I have a friend who got set-up by a trustworthy salesman. He spent a good chunk of money ~$5k and got a good system. I've been researching my own PA, getting interested into the science and everything, now I'm building a Bill Fitzmaurice system and hunting down deals on-line for gear. In the end, I'll be ahead of my friend, but meanwhile he's gigging his stuff dj'ing weddings for his friends (with a 24 channel mixer and making his money back.