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Double Bass New Pre-amp for Blending Mic and Piezzo

rickwolff

rickwolff

‘Leave the clams in, let ’em know we're human,'
Supporting Member
Dec 24, 2012
3,609
5,770
Hudson Wisconsin (15 miles from St. Paul/Mpls
#1
I ran across this sometime back (in a buried post on TB of all things) and it looked pretty awesome. I was finally able to track down the manufacturer in Europe and asked Mark Gollihur if he would be interested in making this product available. He had apparently talked with them previously and was indeed interested in adding this product which they have done today:

Invalid Link Removed

I 'humbly' suggested to Mark that they might call it the 'Rick Wolff autograph model pre-amp for Double Bass Mic and Piezzo by Vintage-Revolution'. I have yet to hear back from him on that.

I've had a bee in my bonnet for some time now regarding mixing a mic and a piezzo. Something tells me if I can't do it with this little box I never will.
 
#5
It might sound like I'm trying to push the Rick Wolff autograph model, BUT, make sure you check out the frequencie for the EQ on 'my' pre-amp:

•Tone controls (mix of CH1 & CH2)
◦Low: +/-15dB Shelf @ 40Hz
◦Mid: +/-15dB Bell@ 700Hz
◦High: +/-15dB Shelf @ 3KHz

I'm not an engineer but it seems you aren't 'wasting' EQ controls on super high frequencies but rather concentrating on the areas that really matter to DB. I may be wrong, but if I may quote Ric Vice 'just my 2 cents.
 
#7
I haven't yet tried the Headway but I know a lot of TBers love it.

Headway is replacing the EDB-1 with an 'new and improved' EDB-2

http://www.bassplayer.com/article/headway-music-audio-edb-2-and-edm-1-pickups-and-preamps/152121

EDB-2
• From a single compact box the EDB-2 can take on a unique range of functions and qualities.
• Refined Class "A" inputs and Pro Audio IC components. Voiced for clarity & warmth.
• Now offering lower noise.
• Effective 5 Band EQ for problem solving and creativity.
• Now offering EQ on Ch.1, Ch.2 or on both Channels.
• Easily read Pro Audio design panel layout.
• Now offering 0 Gain or a HUGE 32dB Gain!
• Now offering improved interfacing with all mixers.
• Versatile inputs, switchable to optimise passive/active pickups & microphones.
• Now offering 3 way Impedance switching on Ch.1 & Ch.2
• Tuneable notch filter with switch for extended range of attack on feedback and problem frequencies.
• Now offering notch filter on Ch. 1 or Ch.2.
Range switch with settings for Guitar, Bass and Violin. Removes unwanted boom, handling noise and low frequency feedback to amplify a clearer, more musical tone of the instrument.
• Signal splitting enabled, e.g. personal/stage monitoring plus to front of house, recording or tuner.
• Dual system mixing of pickups and mics via separate channels with differing EQ’s / Notch.
• Phantom Powering of all suitably wired Pickup and mic Systems via Ch.1 Jack IN.
• Now Offering Phantom to “Ring” or “Tip” at 9v.
• Mic XLR Input offering 18v phantom power to run 99% of Condenser mics. Feedback and hum loop busted via Phase Reverse and Earth lift switches.
• Now offering Phase Reverse on Ch.1 or Ch.2.
New Aux IN Mini-Jack to allow iPod Connection.
Mounting via rubber feet, belt clip (included) or on microphone Stand.
• Powered via regulated mains power supply unit (PSU - Included) or 9v PP3 (6F22 batteries – 2 Included).
• Sturdy steel housing with quality pots and long life sockets. Choice of input and output connectors.
Built to last and guaranteed for 12 months.


If I do try the Headway I will wait for the new model - it is (or was) just introduced at NAMM - not on Headway's website yet.

One issue with the Headway is that it appears they still only supply 18v Phantom which leads to the S/N or 'hiss' issue discussed in other TB threads. Perhaps Headway could/would Mod that by request? It looks like a great box and someone far more qualified than I should do an A B C test with the Abox, The Pre (IA), and the new EDB-2. Are you listening, Chris Fitzgerald?
 
#8
Hey,
Nice find, when I had my EDB-1 Modified by Headway, John Littler was alluding to eventually making some design changes in the box, based on the problems that can happen, as the Realist and Full Circle pickups tend to overdrive the Channel 1 input. Initially, he had considered modifying the Channel 1 input with a dual concentric pot (like they used on the first Jazz Basses) and a range switch to lower the gain. Looks like he went way beyond that. I would not expect a DC powered device with all the controls the EDB-1/EDB-2 has to be able to run a phantom at 48 volts. The distinct advantage of the Headway is it's ultra compact footprint and feature set.

Normally, you can expect there to be a lag between the NAMM introduction and the roll out. As an example, the Flex Preamp from Acoustic Image hasn't been released as of yet and were about 6 months out since it was previewed at the winter NAMM. Most likely because Rick Jones isn't going to bring something to market before it's ready. Last I heard they were waiting on some key parts.

Ric
 
#9
rickwolff said:
It might sound like I'm trying to push the Rick Wolff autograph model, BUT, make sure you check out the frequencie for the EQ on 'my' pre-amp:

•Tone controls (mix of CH1 & CH2)
◦Low: +/-15dB Shelf @ 40Hz
◦Mid: +/-15dB Bell@ 700Hz
◦High: +/-15dB Shelf @ 3KHz

I'm not an engineer but it seems you aren't 'wasting' EQ controls on super high frequencies but rather concentrating on the areas that really matter to DB. I may be wrong, but if I may quote Ric Vice 'just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...


Looks like a nice box. Those are pretty good choices for the frequencies of those filters. That each channel has a semi-parametric circuit (apparently no adjustment of filter Q) would seem to make it quite flexible, indeed. I'm hoping that the circuit is not "voiced" in any way. Would be nice to measure the effective dynamic range, noise, and distortion. Then again, listening ought to do it! :)

More info [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]at the company's site.
 
#10
Drurb,

Thanks for the link to the article on semi-parametric vs parametric. While the Abox leaves out an adjustment of the Q, or bandwidth, the EDB-1 appears to leave off an adustment for gain/amplitude (if I understand the picture of that box correctly). One has to hope that the designers of these boxes chose wisely in setting these fixed amounts.

I imagine you are quite familiar with both the AI products and the Headway. If you get a chance to look at this new Abox I'd love to read your assessment. I'm totally out of my depth with the technicalities but I'm looking forward to giving it the 'ear test'. I find it humerous that some of us bass players would love to have the oldest instrument but the newest electronics. Who knows, since I just bought a brand new bass perhaps I should balance my yin and yang by searching for an old vintage amplifier (just kidding).
 
#12
rickwolff said:
Drurb,

Thanks for the link to the article on semi-parametric vs parametric. While the Abox leaves out an adjustment of the Q, or bandwidth, the EDB-1 appears to leave off an adustment for gain/amplitude (if I understand the picture of that box correctly). One has to hope that the designers of these boxes chose wisely in setting these fixed amounts.
Click to expand...

Well, not exactly. The EDB-1 provides adjustment for the center-frequency and Q (defined as center frequency/bandwidth) of a notch-filter. The typical desire for a notch filter is that it be as deep as possible. That's why there is no gain adjustment.

On the Abox, the filter Qs are fixed while the center frequency and gain are adjustable. One could actually use one of those filters as a pseudo notch filter with fixed Q by setting the gain at -12 dB. That would not form very deep notch, though.

I found a nice, not-too-geeky, explanation Link Removed.
 
#13
i have never had luck blending a mic and pickup through an amp on a typical jazz gig without PA support. i really hope someone can make it work, but i gave up a long time ago. tried many mics and preamps too. even went through a phase of bringing my own mini PA instead of a "bass amp".
 
#15
shwashwa said:
i have never had luck blending a mic and pickup through an amp on a typical jazz gig without PA support. i really hope someone can make it work, but i gave up a long time ago. tried many mics and preamps too. even went through a phase of bringing my own mini PA instead of a "bass amp".
Click to expand...

My dad always warned me against 're-inventing the wheel'. I guess I didn't learn my lesson. What sort of got me going on the mic thing was when I put my pro-35 thru the 'house PA' that was a bose tower system right up on the small stage with us. At the same time I ran my Lifeline pickup thru my bass amp. As many others have found, the mic really added some 'air' and some realism to my sound I hadn't heard before. I'm not sure I really need the mixing aspect so much if I can get sufficient volume with the mic alone. If I need some extra boost or 'punch' that might be where the PU comes in. Essentially I already proved to my satisfaction that this can work (in a relatively quiet gig, which is mostly what I play) in that I was only sitting about 5 feet from the PA which was to the side of me. Next, I'm going to try the QSC on a stand right behind me which others (including Ric Vice) have found to be useable and pleasant on quieter gigs. Wish me luck! I'll let you know.
 
#16
shwashwa said:
i have never had luck blending a mic and pickup through an amp on a typical jazz gig without PA support. i really hope someone can make it work, but i gave up a long time ago. tried many mics and preamps too. even went through a phase of bringing my own mini PA instead of a "bass amp".
Click to expand...

+1 I had a set of Bose 802's, my Walter Woods MI-400-8' and the Fishman Bass Blender with the Crown GLM 200 condenser mic. It was an interesting setup, but it was a PITA to cart around. IMHO it's just easier to find a solid pickup and amp, and use a microphone when a decent house system is available


Ric
 
#17
rickwolff said:
My dad always warned me against 're-inventing the wheel'. I guess I didn't learn my lesson. What sort of got me going on the mic thing was when I put my pro-35 thru the 'house PA' that was a bose tower system right up on the small stage with us. At the same time I ran my Lifeline pickup thru my bass amp. As many others have found, the mic really added some 'air' and some realism to my sound I hadn't heard before. I'm not sure I really need the mixing aspect so much if I can get sufficient volume with the mic alone. If I need some extra boost or 'punch' that might be where the PU comes in. Essentially I already proved to my satisfaction that this can work (in a relatively quiet gig, which is mostly what I play) in that I was only sitting about 5 feet from the PA which was to the side of me. Next, I'm going to try the QSC on a stand right behind me which others (including Ric Vice) have found to be useable and pleasant on quieter gigs. Wish me luck! I'll let you know.
Click to expand...

Rick,
90 % of the time I'm running a Ehrlund EAP with it's matching preamp, into the EDB-1, and the QSC K8. I use the DPA 4099B only on those occasions where I think it might add something.

Ric
 
#18
Ric Vice said:
Rick,
90 % of the time I'm running a Ehrlund EAP with it's matching preamp, into the EDB-1, and the QSC K8. I use the DPA 4099B only on those occasions where I think it might add something.

Ric
Click to expand...

Ric,

a couple questions:
1. Do you not ever run the DPA by itself
2. Do you feel you get a more 'realistic' sound of your bass running the Ehrlund thru the QSC rather than a bass amp, or
3. Do you just use the QSC because it is lighter and you can put it up at ear level.

And any other related thoughts you may have.

Thanks,

Rick
 
#19
I started messing around blending a mic and a pickup sometime in the late 80's. I've gone through periods of using only a mic, only a pickup, pickup through amp and mic to P.A., both in the amp, blend of both to P.A....etc. Having the mic in the amp has never really been that much of a problem for me. The mic has its limitations (feedback, bleed, and they can get boomy in some rooms), the pickups have limitations (generally arco sound suffers and everything feels pretty compressed IMO), a pickup is also definitely a different sound than my bass is acoustically. It can be a good sound and even a more usable one than a mic in some contexts.

Blending two signals has gotten pretty easy as far as I am concerned. I have sort of a hierarchy going as far as optimum tone/needed volume is concerned. Best sound by far and easiest setup is playing acoustically, but the conditions have to be right for it. I could say that about every one of these setups though...
Next is mic only, whether through a bass amp, a QSC K10, or the P.A.
Louder than that I add a pickup to the mix, and sometimes swap the mic for the Ehrlund pickup. The Ehrlund will go louder with less bleed than the mic while most agree still keeping a mic like feel to the sound.
When blending I have had by far the best results mixing a mic or mic like pickup (i.e. Ehrlund in my case) with a fairly compressed sounding pickup like an underwood or Wilson. Mixing a pair of "dark" or mic like signals is not nearly as versatile as mixing a pair of signals with different character IME. Some rooms the "my bass only louder" ideal just does not cut it and it is really nice to have some options!
 
#20
rickwolff said:
Ric,

a couple questions:
1. Do you not ever run the DPA by itself
2. Do you feel you get a more 'realistic' sound of your bass running the Ehrlund thru the QSC rather than a bass amp, or
3. Do you just use the QSC because it is lighter and you can put it up at ear level.

And any other related thoughts you may have.

Thanks,

Rick
Click to expand...

1. Hardly ever, I've done that with my other setup.
which is one of two Walter Woods heads and a Audiokinesis TC-112. The sound is wonderful but, even with those amps, the DPA 4099 will feed back much faster than the Ehrlund does.

2. Well, Walter's amps faithfully reproduce the timbre of my bass, IMHO. In combination with the Thunderchild TC 112, is the bee's knees. I'm not recommending that you run out and by a Woods however, because they are expensive. The QSC/Headway EDB-1, comes in a close second, so it sounds almost as good. In combination with the Ehrlund EAP and Ehrlund Pre. it's a joy to play through.

3. I'm definitely a creature of convenience. At 27 lbs. the QSC K8 is a very portable rig. So, in a word yes.

Ric
 

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