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Double Bass new to swing ... what's the right timing?

#21
Regarding swinging and note placement the place to start is: W.W.R.B.D.

(What Would Ray Brown Do)

Besides lots of critical listening I would also caution someon new to this style of playing not to follow anyone for time. You must confidently put the notes where you believe they should be and have the attitude of (musically) challenging anyone who disagrees. If you’re listening to others for time and playing along you’re already behind.
 
#22
okcrum said:
Unfortunately, it also does not mean that everyone in the band can swing at all. Community bands, for example, sometimes have to fill out sections with players who aren't experienced jazzers. ;)
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This is true. On the other hand, at my university our jazz ensemble we also fill out some chairs with classically trained players who have little jazz experience. In the past 10 years, we have had two iconic drummers play concerts with the band: Jeff Hamilton and Adam Nussbaum. In both cases the bassists were excellent, but the difference in the way the whole band sounded when the student drummer gave way to the guest artist was incredibly striking! Never has the band sounded as good or as tight or swung as hard. The same thing happened when Christian McBride played with the band with a student drummer.

While it is definitely true that everyone has a role in the overall swing feel of an ensemble, it's also true that the feel of a groove is contagious, and one strong leader in a rhythm section can have an incredibly positive effect on an ensemble.
 
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#23
Fredrik E. Nilsen said:
I work with all kinds of big bands. From unexperienced youths to unexperienced adults to semi professional. A lot of the players are definitely not experienced jazzers. Still, the whole band has a responsibility to swing, and it's my job to make it happen. Not to blame the drummer, or "we can't hear the drummer" or anything like that.
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No one here has said anything about blaming drummers or being unable to hear. A large band or orchestra watches the leader/conductor for time, because light travels faster than sound. Experienced players are not thrown off by the fact that the time they see may be a little ahead of the time they hear from the rhythm section simply because of physical distance on a large stage.

One community band I was in had a good bari player about 70-something who'd been a pro all through the heyday of the classic big bands. The BL decided to try Pick Up The Pieces. The rhythm section and most of the band got it swinging pretty hard, but the poor bari player could not feel it, and played the chart straight up, yielding some pretty weird counterpoint.

We finished the tune, and put the chart away, never to be seen again. Sometimes you just have to work within a group's limits. The BL knew he was never going to change the way that bari player felt time. He was great on the more standard material, though.
 
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#24
Fredrik E. Nilsen said:
Not to blame the drummer, or "we can't hear the drummer" or anything like that.
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My experience has been that the drummer in a big band provides easily 80% (73% of people believe any statistic they read online) of the feel and swing of a big band. Think about the last time you had a drummer sit in who caught all the figures and kicked in all the right spots. Felt and sounded like a different band.

Changing the way the music is organized and conceptialized to deprive lame-ohs of their lame excuses sounds like the tail wagging the dog.
 
#25
okcrum said:
No one here has said anything about drummers or being able to hear. A large band or orchestra watches the leader/conductor for time, because light travels faster than sound. Experienced players are not thrown off by the fact that the time they see may be a little ahead of the time they hear from the rhythm section simply because of physical distance on a large stage.
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Well, actually, the part about the drummer was kind of what sparked this discussion:

saabfender said:
The bass provides the thump, the drummer provides the swing.
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saabfender said:
In a big band, the sections listen to the section leader for the swing standard; the lead alto and lead trombone (my old job at the university level) listen to the lead trumpet who is locking up with drummer who is driving the band and defining the swing.
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And: no, you don't watch the conductor for time in a big band.
 
#27
saabfender said:
My experience has been that the drummer in a big band provides easily 80% (73% of people believe any statistic they read online) of the feel and swing of a big band. Think about the last time you had a drummer sit in who caught all the figures and kicked in all the right spots. Felt and sounded like a different band.
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A good drummer can make a good band sound great, or a mediocre band sound good. You'll want the band to sound as good as possible, even if the drummer isn't the greatest. That's why everyone has to contribute.
 
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#29
Fredrik E. Nilsen said:
Absolutely, that's what I stress in the bands I'm leading. Watch me for countoff, cues, volume, stabs, fermatas etc, but not for time (well, the drummer should watch me all the time, to see if he's rushing or dragging).
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Agreed. Once you've got the tempo from countoff, you should be able to maintain that time on your own.
 
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#31
Don Kasper said:
Yes!...THANK. YOU.
Also, too - even in drummerless ensembles, the players are listening to EACH OTHER for the Collective Time, as much as they are looking at the Conductor.
IMFO.
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And, related: you don't look at the conducter for the "one" in a big band. He may give you the one, he may not. You should have the one, all the time (there are a few notable exceptions, but still). If you don't know where one is at all times, you should probably go home and listen and practice.
 
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#33
if the hi-hat and bass can groove: it only takes the ride cymbal and anyone/everyone else to screw things up. backward engineering will reveal where the problem is.

IMO: cats mess up swing by being impatient...no matter the tempo.

jj.833 said:
When I play in advance, the song works great, but it exhausts me mentally.
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it's a 'feel' not a 'think' thing. practice more swing, but at some point you have to trust yourself. good luck! :thumbsup:
 
#36
Reminds me of a joke: How many conductors does it take to change a lightbulb? Nobody knows because nobody ever watches the conductor!

To get back to earlier comments about how some swing problems are caused by horn players who aren't used to playing swing -- I've never met a community musician who can't learn to swing and to fit in with a band that's swinging. It's all a matter of listening to the great swing bands and persevering in rehearsals. Everybody can swing if they want to and work at it.
 
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