Double Bass new to swing ... what's the right timing?

[sean_on_bass]

OTOH, as great as Oscar was... being a slave to the beat wasn't his thing. Ron Carter OTOH... such an innate sense of rhythm... Don't always like his notes but man, his sense of time... dayammn!

Strange, i've always found Oscar to be a human metronome. Even when he had flashy bass/guitar players and no drummer, the sense of time was unwavering. He would also tap the poopie out of his feet while playing. And of course Ron Carter is awesome...that feel.

 

[jj.833]

I strive to place all my 4/4 walking quarter notes DEAD CENTER in the metronome click in my head.

And, the most important: swing is everybodies responsibility, not just the drummer.

it's a 'feel' not a 'think' thing. practice more swing, but at some point you have to trust yourself.

Thanks everybody for your input. I was talking to the conductor regarding the timing. He said that he would want me to play in exact center, not ahead. That in the past, bass players tended to play ahead, partly as a trick 'not to slow down', partly as a method to walk around the 'it takes a long time to start sounding' double bass problem. But nowadays, the bassplayers should be good enough to keep the rhythm, and the pickup technology today solves the second problem too.
So I played a gig then in dead center, trying to focus more on my inner metronome, allowing others to affect my click only so that the 'paste would stay edible' (makes sense?). It seemed alright, people liked it, conductor was satisfied.

But still I'm not sure. When I listen to old records, Ray Brown / Oscar Peterson mentioned here too, I can't stop to feel that the bass is ahead of the drums. I know it's 'feel not think' thing; but I'm almost 40 and don't want to be begginer for another 10 years. I'm gonna ask the drummer about timing, also I'll probably try to do some exact time analysis of the records. If I learn something, I'll drop it here.

The conductor also recommended a method that should work always: record yourself into some mp3 and then listen for strong and weak parts. Seems like a good idea, though probably answers a different question.

 

[dhbailey52]

Recording your rehearsals with the band will be an excellent way to analyze what's happening. If your on-the-beat bass playing allows the drummer more freedom to swing or to drive the band along, then you are doing a great job. If you're going to try to play just ahead of the drums, that forces the drummer to become the metronome for the band and restricts his/her ability to swing the band or drive the band along. Listening to your recordings can really help you better define your playing in that situation.

Regarding the recordings of Ray Brown / Oscar Peterson and other greats of the past, while listening to the recordings of the greats is good to give us goals to aim for, don't beat yourself up if you can't match Ray Brown's impeccable bass playing. He was one in a million. Find what works for you and your fellow bandmates in whatever situation you find yourself playing. And by all means do what the conductor asks you to do -- the conductor has the responsibility for getting the correct sound (as he/she perceives it) to the audience and each musician in the ensemble is only a small part of the whole. If the conductor says "play on the beat" then you should do it. If the bassist in a recording is ahead of the drums or if the drums are just behind the bass (depends on your point of view) that was what was proper for that recording session. That doesn't mean it's correct for all bass playing. And don't compare a trio's recordings and bass/drums placement with the bass/drums/piano placement for big band playing. Two very different musical concepts which require very different approaches by the bassist and the drummer. People who can play great in a trio and play great in a big band and in any sized ensemble in between are very rare. The same goes for trumpets/saxes/trombones. Not all brass and reed players are good "section players" -- some need to be the only one playing that type of instrument because they just can't (or choose not to) blend in with the other members of the section. And not all great big-band section players sound good as leaders of their own quartets.

 

[Matthijs]

Playing ahead of the beat can add a fantastic drive to a big band and add some danceabilty. I love it if I can pull it of, but it is only possible if you and your drummer are on the same page, and the rest of the band is steady enough. For now I’d stick with the bandleaders instructions and slowly work towards some more tension in the groove.

 

[Michael Glynn]

I was trying to study this by listening to other bands, seems to me:
1. when a bigband plays according to metronome, it sounds terrible, so the varying tempo is probably right
2. in drums, the clear indicator of the tempo is hihat stomped on 2 a 4. The bass seems to me to play slightly in advance of the tempo given by drums...

...I tried different approaches in the bigband, regarding 'tempo pushing'. When I play laid back, the band happily adapts it and the song slows down and loses the energy. When I play in advance, the song works great, but it exhausts me mentally. When I try to play exactly in the right time, the song sound a bit 'detached' (lacing better term).

The conductor also recommended a method that should work always: record yourself into some mp3 and then listen for strong and weak parts. Seems like a good idea, though probably answers a different question.

Without having heard you play, let me just say that in my experience almost all beginning jazz bass players play behind the beat to some extent. Even when they feel that they are playing right in the middle of the beat, out in front of the band it sounds like they are dragging. Recording yourself is great advice, but what I would try to do is be sure to remember where you thought you were putting the beat, then check how it sounds when you listen back later. Hopefully you'll be able to hear if there is a disconnect between where you feel you are and where it sounds like you are.

Regarding connecting with the drums, in a swinging 4/4 situation where the drummer is playing on the ride cymbal, I prefer to focus on the ride rather than the hi hat. Partly because I think that linking up the quarter note feel of the ride cymbal and the bass is critical to the groove, but also because, in my experience, some drummers will play a little behind the beat with the hi hat compared to the ride. So if you follow the hat, you'll be behind the ride.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Without having heard you play, let me just say that in my experience almost all beginning jazz bass players play behind the beat to some extent. Even when they feel that they are playing right in the middle of the beat, out in front of the band it sounds like they are dragging. Recording yourself is great advice, but what I would try to do is be sure to remember where you thought you were putting the beat, then check how it sounds when you listen back later. Hopefully you'll be able to hear if there is a disconnect between where you feel you are and where it sounds like you are.

^^^^Excellent advice here. When we are in the middle of an experience, we perceive it from the inside. It's often useful to be able to step outside and find out how the thing gets perceived from the outside for a dose of perspective.

Here's a thread with all sorts of perspectives regarding the whole "ahead of the beat/behind the beat/middle of the beat" can of worms. Lots of interesting and different ideas to look into in there.

 

[Sam Dingle]

This is true. On the other hand, at my university our jazz ensemble we also fill out some chairs with classically trained players who have little jazz experience. In the past 10 years, we have had two iconic drummers play concerts with the band: Jeff Hamilton and Adam Nussbaum. In both cases the bassists were excellent, but the difference in the way the whole band sounded when the student drummer gave way to the guest artist was incredibly striking! Never has the band sounded as good or as tight or swung as hard. The same thing happened when Christian McBride played with the band with a student drummer.

While it is definitely true that everyone has a role in the overall swing feel of an ensemble, it's also true that the feel of a groove is contagious, and one strong leader in a rhythm section can have an incredibly positive effect on an ensemble.

Just to add to this its not just the rhythm section. Junior year of college Sean Jones played a concert with the big band at my school and at the end the band played a classic big band blues to finish it out. Basic format; head, solos going around, big horn section and out. during the solos there was a bass solo, then a trumpet solo and near the end of the student trumpet solo Sean walked out on stage unplanned, played 5 chorus or so and then jumped into the section. You can hear the difference between the rhythm section playing behind sean and the rest of the soloists and then the whole band was risen by him being in the horn section. Long way of saying no matter what section they are in, 1 player can really lift the others up.