New: Zoom B3n Multi-Effects

[BassikLee]

I'm looking forward to what you cook up

 

[Saszi]

Lest you think I'm just being a nit picky techy numbers nerd, I assure you that for me, this is all about the sound and how affects me viscerally. With my current basses, amp, and speaker, I get a wonderfully satisfying sound. Each note feels good to play. I've spent many years getting the technique and equipment that gets me this sound.

Since I don't use a lot of drive, if a pedal diminishes my clean sound, it makes playing a lot less fun. And yeah, it makes it worse (not just different) to reduce the force of the attack, muddy up the overall tone, and thin out the low end. Theoretically you could compensate with eq for the frequency rolloff, but in real life, especially with inexpensive digital eq, it doesn't work that way.

So I'm planning on doing the recordings partially as a sanity check for myself, and also so you all have a chance to listen and respond. Do I hear something you don't? Or does my pedal sound different than yours? Or do you hear it and don't really care? Or, maybe you have a suggestion for avoiding the tone suck I hear?

For me, the tone and envelope of my sound, and my ability to control it with my technique, is really important to how much I enjoy playing. Others will of course have different priorities.

If you do not like it, do not use it. I like the voice of my guitar with him. That's the point

 

[Spblat]

If you do not like it, do not use it. I like the voice of my guitar with him. That's the point

So very much THIS. Did I miss where somebody offered tangible evidence of tone suck? A/B recordings, response plots? Anyone? So far we've seen an objective comparison showing that "empty patch" and "tuner bypass" are the same. Until we see a comparison between "empty patch" and "bare wire" all this "it ruins my attack and sucks my tone" business is posturing and conjecture.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

So very much THIS. Did I miss where somebody offered tangible evidence of tone suck? A/B recordings, response plots? Anyone? So far we've seen an objective comparison showing that "empty patch" and "tuner bypass" are the same. Until we see a comparison between "empty patch" and "bare wire" all this "it ruins my attack and sucks my tone" business is posturing and conjecture.

On Saturday or Sunday I intend to put a few bass samples on a device, take a stereo out, and into one input on my zoom R16, and another through my B1on in bypass and into another channel and see if I can then sample align and normalise them, and invert the phase of one. If I can make it work. A caveat is that it is low impedance, but using the HiZ input on the R16 adds an additional variable, as would a passive DI box or an active one into a low impedance input, fed by a split signal from a bass. A second caveat is whether the two r16 channels are identical, but I can try different channels, which is easier with pre recorded material.

 

[jimfist]

At this point, we ha

Lest you think I'm just being a nit picky techy numbers nerd, I assure you that for me, this is all about the sound and how affects me viscerally. With my current basses, amp, and speaker, I get a wonderfully satisfying sound. Each note feels good to play. I've spent many years getting the technique and equipment that gets me this sound.

Since I don't use a lot of drive, if a pedal diminishes my clean sound, it makes playing a lot less fun. And yeah, it makes it worse (not just different) to reduce the force of the attack, muddy up the overall tone, and thin out the low end. Theoretically you could compensate with eq for the frequency rolloff, but in real life, especially with inexpensive digital eq, it doesn't work that way.

So I'm planning on doing the recordings partially as a sanity check for myself, and also so you all have a chance to listen and respond. Do I hear something you don't? Or does my pedal sound different than yours? Or do you hear it and don't really care? Or, maybe you have a suggestion for avoiding the tone suck I hear?

For me, the tone and envelope of my sound, and my ability to control it with my technique, is really important to how much I enjoy playing. Others will of course have different priorities.

I'm interested in seeing how you go about this and what you find and are sharing. Please be sure to explain the methodology you're using in detail (gear, etc.).

The crux of the experiment is to use a single performance as the basis for comparison. This would involve splitting the bass at the source (you may want to confirm that, in fact, the splitter itself is providing a true matched pair of signals, just to be anal retentive), and using some type of level meter to closely match the output level of each source (with the B3n in tuner/bypass, adjust the global level so that it matches that of the direct, unfettered bass signal).

I've done my own non-clinical, down and dirty comparisons using a DAW (Audacity), as posted previously. I couldn't hear a real difference, and definitely nothing obvious, nor did any of the graphical waveform analysis or FFT comparisons yield anything that would indicate an obvious high or low end roll-off or significant coloration of the tone.

Pre-emptively, the following questions are not meant to be demeaning or condescending, so please don't take them as such. I'm honestly curious about some of the details. If you don't mind my asking: to this point, you've been comparing signals using a traditional bass head and cabinet as the sole listening speaker system, correct? Are you using an A/B splitter/combiner/mixer, or are you manually plugging/unplugging/replugging between direct wired and B3n bypass to compare? How have you level matched the direct-wired signal with the B3n bypassed signal? Just curious how you've gone about making determinations up to this point.

 

[smeet]

I'm interested in seeing how you go about this and what you find and are sharing. Please be sure to explain the methodology you're using in detail (gear, etc.).

The crux of the experiment is to use a single performance as the basis for comparison. This would involve splitting the bass at the source (you may want to confirm that, in fact, the splitter itself is providing a true matched pair of signals, just to be anal retentive), and using some type of level meter to closely match the output level of each source (with the B3n in tuner/bypass, adjust the global level so that it matches that of the direct, unfettered bass signal).

I've done my own non-clinical, down and dirty comparisons using a DAW (Audacity), as posted previously. I couldn't hear a real difference, and definitely nothing obvious, nor did any of the graphical waveform analysis or FFT comparisons yield anything that would indicate an obvious high or low end roll-off or significant coloration of the tone.

Pre-emptively, the following questions are not meant to be demeaning or condescending, so please don't take them as such. I'm honestly curious about some of the details. If you don't mind my asking: to this point, you've been comparing signals using a traditional bass head and cabinet as the sole listening speaker system, correct? Are you using an A/B splitter/combiner/mixer, or are you manually plugging/unplugging/replugging between direct wired and B3n bypass to compare? How have you level matched the direct-wired signal with the B3n bypassed signal? Just curious how you've gone about making determinations up to this point.

I have a general idea of how I'll set it up, but it will NOT be a rigorous scientific test. I'll get it as close as I can, and I'll detail the gear and the process. I will be using a Mackie 1608 mixer to do the splitting, as I don't have a dedicated splitter (the Mackie is probably higher fidelity anyway). I will record a control split track and compare the two to make sure they are basically identical.

Level matching is not the easiest thing to do, but I'll try to match levels by ear, eye, and meter to get as close as I can. I'll be using Logic as my DAW, and the audio interface is a Mackie Onyx.

So far, I have been comparing through my bass rig, which is a Reiner Classic 1200 amp into a Barefaced Big Twin II (super clean flat response wide frequency range cabinet) and a Barefaced Four10 (more of a traditional voicing, but with a wider frequency range). The instruments used for comparison are a US Spector with Nordstrand pickups and preamp, and a passive Nordstrand P5 with a Seymour Duncan Pickup. I have been comparing by manually plugging/unplugging/replugging between direct wired and B3n bypass to compare. So, it has not been objective measurements by any means. That is part of the reason that I want to run some semi-rigorous tests to make sure that I am hearing what I think I am.

For the split recording, I will be recording direct, which is obviously different from going through a bass amp/cabinet. While it is technically more accurate, sometimes the bass amp (and being in the room with the sound) makes the differences more apparent. I hope that my recordings clarify things rather than stir up more argument.

Speaking of which:

So very much THIS. Did I miss where somebody offered tangible evidence of tone suck? A/B recordings, response plots? Anyone? So far we've seen an objective comparison showing that "empty patch" and "tuner bypass" are the same. Until we see a comparison between "empty patch" and "bare wire" all this "it ruins my attack and sucks my tone" business is posturing and conjecture.

Please feel free to ignore everything I am saying. I don't believe I have done or said anything that could be described as "posturing". Everything that is my personal perception has been represented as such. If an objective comparison showed that the B3n completely destroys your signal, I doubt you would stop using it. Similarly, I'm not going to stop hearing a difference just because two graphs look similar.

If you like it, that's great. But why the attempts to discredit what some of us are hearing?

I will do as good a job with the recordings as my equipment, skill and time constraints allow. If the ensuing discussion is courteous, I'll stick around. Otherwise I'm not sure if I will participate in any more discussion in this thread.

 

[jimfist]

Some might be arguing this point, but speaking for myself alone, I'm only interested in discussion, and doing our best to get some deeper insight and information on the subject.

 

[Jantelagen]

Honestly I'm not sure man, to my ears its like @smeet explained, it seemed to have "less attack, less highs, and less lows.".

@smeet is doing that b3n bypass test so it should be more helpful than my subjective discussions. btw, I just replied to be clear that I *wasn't bashing the b3n but had a legitimate issue. I waited on the b3n and hoped it would replace some pedals but it didn't work out for me in that application. My gf's little bro has a b3n also, he mentioned that if using the amp/cab sims its not an issue

oops, Edit: "to be clear that I *wasn't bashing"... lol, mistyping *was is a big difference

 

[VonSledgehammer]

I'm always very interested in data like this and hope you continue your experiments @smeet - please do report back. I would be happy to participate in a blind test. If I wasn't travelling I probably would have already done some testing myself. In my case, I would never run in bypass mode as I am using the B3n as a pre-amp so it's a non-issue for me (sounds great!) but your use case is perfectly valid.

 

[jimfist]

I'm always very interested in data like this and hope you continue your experiments @smeet - please do report back. I would be happy to participate in a blind test. If I wasn't travelling I probably would have already done some testing myself. In my case, I would never run in bypass mode as I am using the B3n as a pre-amp so it's a non-issue for me (sounds great!) but your use case is perfectly valid.

Likewise regarding how I use the B3n. For most gigs, the unfettered straight tone of my bass isn't generally what I want to hear, but rather, the impact that an amp model (and usually cab sim) and other sordid effects will have on the raw tone. The exception to that rule is when I trot out the Wal, which is a next-level instrument.

 

[Saszi]

I need a radial DI, and I think no problem.
This is where I'm playing through the zoom, where there is a clear signal to the studio
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="Mystic Pictures - Under the Dome - YouTube" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[jimfist]

So maybe the reason things have been slow updating the B3n is the new version 2.0 update for the MS60B (adding a whole slew of effects previously not on the MS60B).

Invalid Link Removed

My take on this is that ZOOM is throwing a final bone to existing MS60B owners, and also making a move to clear out existing inventory by making it even more appealing before discontinuing the line. Then they can concentrate 100% of their time on the new "n" series of pedals. This begs the question: shouldn't the B3 be next in line to get this update?

 

[jimfist]

Zoom MS-60B Firmware Update 2.0 (June 2017)

 

[ThrewSilver]

I would hope that the B3n would have AT LEAST as many effects/amps/cabs as the MS-60B. Hell even their little plastic unit (B1on ??) has more than the B3n.

 

[jimfist]

I would hope that the B3n would have AT LEAST as many effects/amps/cabs as the MS-60B. Hell even their little plastic unit (B1on ??) has more than the B3n.

I like lots of options for amps and cabs, but IMO, the B1on and B3 were loaded with a ton of dead wood - redundant and not-good sounding effects. I'm fine with Zoom trickling out regular updates over the next year, with improved quality being the focus. JMO

 

[lemueldave]

So maybe the reason things have been slow updating the B3n is the new version 2.0 update for the MS60B (adding a whole slew of effects previously not on the MS60B).

Invalid Link Removed

My take on this is that ZOOM is throwing a final bone to existing MS60B owners, and also making a move to clear out existing inventory by making it even more appealing before discontinuing the line. Then they can concentrate 100% of their time on the new "n" series of pedals. This begs the question: shouldn't the B3 be next in line to get this update?

Wow. That's a lot. Never tried an MS-60B but this update should make it more handy for those who want their board small.

 

[CharlieC]

Wow. That's a lot. Never tried an MS-60B but this update should make it more handy for those who want their board small.

The MS-60B is a great pedal with effect quality same as the B3, but with the ability to support a fourth effect in the chain.

I use one on my other board where space is tight.

 

[jimfist]

I had an MS60B but seemed to have a problem with my active basses overdriving the input of the unit (to the best of my troubleshooting skills). I flipped it for the B3, which solved that problem, and it was my staple pedal for a few years, up until last year.

 

[Johno Dunn]

Zoom MS-60B Firmware Update 2.0 (June 2017)

FLIP TOP!!!!
YAY!!!!
J!

 

[DJ Bebop]

Lest you think I'm just being a nit picky techy numbers nerd, I assure you that for me, this is all about the sound and how affects me viscerally. With my current basses, amp, and speaker, I get a wonderfully satisfying sound. Each note feels good to play. I've spent many years getting the technique and equipment that gets me this sound.

Since I don't use a lot of drive, if a pedal diminishes my clean sound, it makes playing a lot less fun. And yeah, it makes it worse (not just different) to reduce the force of the attack, muddy up the overall tone, and thin out the low end. Theoretically you could compensate with eq for the frequency rolloff, but in real life, especially with inexpensive digital eq, it doesn't work that way.

So I'm planning on doing the recordings partially as a sanity check for myself, and also so you all have a chance to listen and respond. Do I hear something you don't? Or does my pedal sound different than yours? Or do you hear it and don't really care? Or, maybe you have a suggestion for avoiding the tone suck I hear?

For me, the tone and envelope of my sound, and my ability to control it with my technique, is really important to how much I enjoy playing. Others will of course have different priorities.

I dig that. Just because I don't care enough or I don't know what I am doing enough to hear enough of a difference.
Doesn't mean others don't. Especially when it takes away your fun, man don't do that. Nothing's worth takin' your fun away :O0