Double Bass Newbie Seeking to Amplify

[ProfChris]

I knew this would turn into a round table/seminar and lol. Great, good stuff to pick through and follow up on.
@Prof Chris, your using a lavaliere mic in low volume situations? I've been thinking a Vic's p'up will do, I'm new to the scene and to get amplified successfully is the first objective here...

Low/high volume is hard to convey in writing

But I've successfully used my setup when the sound was loud enough that audience members had to put their heads together to talk (but not to shout, just raised voices).

Mine is a hybrid bass with a fairly stout top (plenty loud though). A very responsive top might feed back more.

 

[DJ Bebop]

My thing is an old Underwood double-element on my Kay M-1 into my now Mesa WD 800 which has a built-in HPF and SW 115. Now I can plug in directly to the amp and it works fine but if I plug into most any pedal then into the amp it's better.

I have a bunch of crap around here that I plug into for impedance match like a BDI21. Sometimes I use a Zoom B1xon and it works to match impedance but I usually get silly cause I have those built-in effects too.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I'm a bit of an expert (insert sarcasm) on the mini condensers, electret, lavaliere, whatever you want to call them. Years ago there was a mega thread here about the famous Radio Shack mic of this style. I've used that one and one made by AT. For a while I was experimenting and building my own. I still have the AT and a Bartlett (which I like a lot). I use the Bartlett when I have the chance to gig with a mic (which is rare these days). It's a really nice piece of gear.

My personal opinion regardless of the technical specs split forth about mounting them in the f-hole is that they can sound great. Let your ears determine what sounds good - not the spec sheet. Of course this depends on the same factors as amplifying anything else though.....what amp, EQ, PA, etc. You can get really good volume before feedback when compared to other mic setups, but still usually not enough to carry the day for any bar gig. If everyone in your band is amplifying their instrument, even if it's acoustic amplification - then the mini-condenser isn't going to be ideal. You'll be in love with them until you need more volume mid gig, and then you'll come to the same conclusions the rest of us do. Mic'ing is difficult unless you are in a position where the sound setup is good, and the sound guy knows what he's doing with upright bass. Both rarities for us weekend warrior types.

I would still recommend a Vic pickup, and trying out your BDDI + Boughton HPF as a preamp chain just to see where you're at with your current gear. It won't put you out of a bunch of money to start. Once you start going down the rabbit hole of amplifying upright, it's easy to throw away hundreds of dollars chasing tone.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If you buy used you won’t be loose as much money as if you buy new as you can always resell it at a similar price.
For a beginner playing pizz only (amplified) a bridge wing pickup and a high impedance buffer or preamp (which you already have) will do. The pickup should not sit too strong in the wing, It just shouldn’t fall out by itself.

 

[Count Bassie]

Great stuff here again, I've got a reasonable idea of how to go forward without breaking any bones at this point, lol.
I do have a Mesa TT-800, which model also has an adjustable hpf. I just thought it's way too powerful an amp to use for upright, but maybe that and my little Schroeder 1210 is the right stuff. I'll look at the input impedance in the spec sheet...

 

[DJ Bebop]

Great stuff here again, I've got a reasonable idea of how to go forward without breaking any bones at this point, lol.
I do have a Mesa TT-800, which model also has an adjustable hpf. I just thought it's way too powerful an amp to use for upright, but maybe that and my little Schroeder 1210 is the right stuff. I'll look at the input impedance in the spec sheet...

The Mesa stuff IMO works well with uprights you just have to decide if the input impedance is right for you. Like I said, I can plug my piezo straight in and it works fine for me but it works better with a preamp. My WD has the variable HPF which helps. The TT should work well with the Schroeder.

My setup looks heavier than it is. It is bulky compared to a Phil Jones or an Acoustic Image but I don't mind suffering a little for my art

The Hartke or the SWR sound like good grab-and-go options

 

[Count Bassie]

The Mesa stuff IMO works well with uprights you just have to decide if the input impedance is right for you. Like I said, I can plug my piezo straight in and it works fine for me but it works better with a preamp. My WD has the variable HPF which helps. The TT should work well with the Schroeder.

My setup looks heavier than it is. It is bulky compared to a Phil Jones or an Acoustic Image but I don't mind suffering a little for my art

View attachment 7326070

The Hartke or the SWR sound like good grab-and-go options

Nice rig. I think I want a Subway 15 for my setup too. The Schroeder does well though, it's got good focus, a not-harsh, we'll defined-almost friendly punch.
I'm historically a more gnarly voiced player, what I've guy now sounds a little more refined... But I've still got aGK400RB and old Carvin 215, loaded with Kappalite 3015s. In case I find myself in garage mode... Rock n roll and all, you know...

 

[DoubleMIDI]

A DB works better with a 12”. I have a 10” and a 15” too and the 12” (Genz Benz Focus, 200w, discontinued) is the best. It is also a very neutral sounding cab which most big BG-oriented cabs are not.

A DB needs less lows as this is part of the acoustic sound. Too much lows and it sounds like a muffled bass guitar. With most pickups you have to reduce the lows anyway as they are mounted at the bridge. The body doesn’t allow to get that much lows radiated acoustically.

 

[Count Bassie]

A DB works better with a 12”. I have a 10” and a 15” too and the 12” (Genz Benz Focus, 200w, discontinued) is the best. It is also a very neutral sounding cab which most big BG-oriented cabs are not.

A DB needs less lows as this is part of the acoustic sound. Too much lows and it sounds like a muffled bass guitar. With most pickups you have to reduce the lows anyway as they are mounted at the bridge. The body doesn’t allow to get that much lows radiated acoustically.

Less lows-content makes sense, yeah. My little Hartke Kickback 12 will be adequate I suppose.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that the disks were in the earlier Realists but the later ones it was just foil.

There are still miniature discs (those are the actual piezo elements) but they are much lower profile now and less likely to create those dents, as I am to understand. Also, they are more robust than the old design (the older ones tended to lose their efficacy as time went by under the full-time full pressure of the strings).

 

[Mark Gollihur]

Less lows-content makes sense, yeah. My little Hartke Kickback 12 will be adequate I suppose.

Should work fine. I don't think those amps publish their input impedance, but I don't think it's a high-impedance input. You may well benefit from a buffering preamp, as others have suggested. Here's an article that explains why, if you want to know: Preamps for Your Upright Bass; Do You Need One?

 

[Earl]

Should work fine. I don't think those amps publish their input impedance, but I don't think it's a high-impedance input. You may well benefit from a buffering preamp, as others have suggested. Here's an article that explains why, if you want to know: Preamps for Your Upright Bass; Do You Need One?

Hartke told me 1 MEG when I emailed them.

 

[Count Bassie]

Should work fine. I don't think those amps publish their input impedance, but I don't think it's a high-impedance input. You may well benefit from a buffering preamp, as others have suggested. Here's an article that explains why, if you want to know: Preamps for Your Upright Bass; Do You Need One?

I'll read that, thank you.

 

[Ric Vice]

My take is that it's the Preamp EQ voicing working in concert with a buffer preamp and a hpf that makes up part of the sound of a amplified bass. All three things need to be set right. Just my take.

 

[Count Bassie]

My take is that it's the Preamp EQ voicing working in concert with a buffer preamp and a hpf that makes up part of the sound of a amplified bass. All three things need to be set right. Just my take.

All things are reasonably considered. It's the approach that makes it approachable or head-spinning.

 

[Endlesssolo]

I went through a pick up experimentation phase, and used each of these: Underwood, Lifeline, Copper Realist, Full circle, and Yamahiko single element. With the caveat that every bass is different and, easily as important, every player is looking for something different in sound, here’s how I would rank them from darkest/muddiest to brightest/most annoying. (Sorry for somewhat negative descriptions!) Realist, Lifeline, Full Circle, Yamahiko, Underwood. For me the Underwood was not really useable due to very forward and aggressive upper mids, and the Realist not really useable due to lack of definition on the lower end. The lifeline is a little cleaner than the realist to my ears, a little smoother, but there is a trade-off. It is a little less natural sounding, but more controllable. The full circle and yamahiko are both pretty good IMO, I settled on the Yamahiko because it’s a little brighter and it’s built really well. I’m not concerned about it failing.

The most important thing to get, and for me this took well over a year of trying things out, is a solid and clear understanding of what kind of sound you want and what your priorities are. For any of these pickups, you do need to match impedance, so either an amp with a 1megohm (or higher!) input or a preamp. One of the old fishman model B amps is fine, and there’s a guy on this forum who was making really good, inexpensive impedance matching preamps, I bet someone will remember who that is. Point is, you don’t need to spend a lot on a fancy preamp. Just match impedance!

 

[Count Bassie]

I went through a pick up experimentation phase, and used each of these: Underwood, Lifeline, Copper Realist, Full circle, and Yamahiko single element. With the caveat that every bass is different and, easily as important, every player is looking for something different in sound, here’s how I would rank them from darkest/muddiest to brightest/most annoying. (Sorry for somewhat negative descriptions!) Realist, Lifeline, Full Circle, Yamahiko, Underwood. For me the Underwood was not really useable due to very forward and aggressive upper mids, and the Realist not really useable due to lack of definition on the lower end. The lifeline is a little cleaner than the realist to my ears, a little smoother, but there is a trade-off. It is a little less natural sounding, but more controllable. The full circle and yamahiko are both pretty good IMO, I settled on the Yamahiko because it’s a little brighter and it’s built really well. I’m not concerned about it failing.

The most important thing to get, and for me this took well over a year of trying things out, is a solid and clear understanding of what kind of sound you want and what your priorities are. For any of these pickups, you do need to match impedance, so either an amp with a 1megohm (or higher!) input or a preamp. One of the old fishman model B amps is fine, and there’s a guy on this forum who was making really good, inexpensive impedance matching preamps, I bet someone will remember who that is. Point is, you don’t need to spend a lot on a fancy preamp. Just match impedance!

I think some nice clarity, ability to EQ some, and the particular approach of double bass will be the formula for getting over at duo type gigs with a guitar player/singer. I'm not looking to alter the revolution of the planet in the music world, lol. Just a little concise, genuine musical voice is what I'm after.
I like the descriptions! Compromise is a thing...

 

[DJ Bebop]

One of the old fishman model B amps is fine, and there’s a guy on this forum who was making really good, inexpensive impedance matching preamps, I bet someone will remember who that is. Point is, you don’t need to spend a lot on a fancy preamp. Just match impedance!

Maybe fdesk?

Double Bass Thread 'Review of new pre-amp/high-pass filter'

Jul 9, 2007

One of those simple little products for which many of us wish is finally available. A little over a year ago, our own fdeck and I had a dialogue about the design of a useful pre-amp/adjustable high-pass filter (pre/HPF). I bench-tested a pre-production version and after a tweak here and there by fdeck, I must say that this is one sweet little circuit from the standpoint of both laboratory measurements and months of use with my DB and rig (RS-2 pickup, EA iamp200, Wizzy 12).

The pre/HPF incorporates a 10M-ohm input and a 12-dB/oct high-pass filter with the corner frequency...

• drurb
• Replies: 754
• Forum: Amps, Mics & Pickups [DB]

• 

hpftechllc - About HPF-Pre

Site updated: Oct. 18, 2024 Status: HPF-Pre is ready to take your orders! Announcement: HPF-Pre Series 3 Mini is now available! Series 3 Mini is the answer to many requests that I've received over the years. Bassists have asked me about a layout similar to most guitar and bass effects pedals. It's

sites.google.com

 

[Endlesssolo]

Maybe fdesk?

Double Bass Thread 'Review of new pre-amp/high-pass filter'

Jul 9, 2007

One of those simple little products for which many of us wish is finally available. A little over a year ago, our own fdeck and I had a dialogue about the design of a useful pre-amp/adjustable high-pass filter (pre/HPF). I bench-tested a pre-production version and after a tweak here and there by fdeck, I must say that this is one sweet little circuit from the standpoint of both laboratory measurements and months of use with my DB and rig (RS-2 pickup, EA iamp200, Wizzy 12).

The pre/HPF incorporates a 10M-ohm input and a 12-dB/oct high-pass filter with the corner frequency...

• drurb
• Replies: 754
• Forum: Amps, Mics & Pickups [DB]

• 

hpftechllc - About HPF-Pre

Site updated: Oct. 18, 2024 Status: HPF-Pre is ready to take your orders! Announcement: HPF-Pre Series 3 Mini is now available! Series 3 Mini is the answer to many requests that I've received over the years. Bassists have asked me about a layout similar to most guitar and bass effects pedals. It's

sites.google.com

Yep, that’s the one.

 

[Endlesssolo]

I think some nice clarity, ability to EQ some, and the particular approach of double bass will be the formula for getting over at duo type gigs with a guitar player/singer. I'm not looking to alter the revolution of the planet in the music world, lol. Just a little concise, genuine musical voice is what I'm after.
I like the descriptions! Compromise is a thing...

If you’re talking about quiet gigs without a drummer, it does make amplifying a lot easier. You might try one of the darker sounding pickups, one of those fdeck impedance matching preamps, and the amp you already have.

If you want to spend more money (who doesn’t, lol) you try could a good clip on mic; they work really well for very quiet gigs. There’s the DPA4099, the nadine from ear trumpet, a few others. Those will sound better through a PA.