Newer bassist, how much power do I need?

[zombie1965]

Your situation sounds similar to mine (I have a 350w head and 2,4X10 cabs and not once needed more, even with a loud drummer.)v

I'd go with a 350 - 500w head and a 4x10 to start with. If you need more send a feed to the PA or add another 4x10 or both

maybe look at a
Hartke HA3500 or HA5500 head
Aguilar Tone Hammer 350 head
Ampeg Portaflex 500

Hartke make good value 410xl cabs
or Gallien Krueger CX 410/4

Maybe try the fender rumble line. not for me (to wooly/muddy) but some rave about them.

 

[BaltBass5]

My personal opinion is 500 watts and (2) 2x10's rated at 8 Ohms. That setup will work great for large clubs running good PA's. For medium clubs the same rig will do just fine on its own and then for small rooms 1 of the cabs is plenty.

This is assuming you aren't playing with 2 guitarists that are both trying to outdo each other with half stacks! Lol

 

[MobileHolmes]

When I was in your shoes, I found that, in most situations a 350 watt head into a 410 and sometimes also a 115 was more than enough to keep up with a drummer and half stack. That was in a mix of bars with PA support and house parties without. It kind of depends on your budget, and your sonic preferences. That said, if I were starting from scratch at the moment, I'd look pretty seriously at a GK MB500 and a Neo 212 cab. I've got the Neo 112 and it sounds great, is surprisingly loud, and is nice and portable. The 212 should just be more of everything in not too much bigger of a box.

 

[Cole Louis Allar]

 

[esoxhntr]

As has been said here many a time... 500 to 800 watts, and a good 212 or 410 cab. Lots of that used here on Talkbass in the classifieds. Also, buy something with a bit of a name and in good shape - this is the start of your journey and you will likely swap things in and out (can you say re-sale value?) until you are fully content . Okay, you will never be FULLY fully content, but at least relatively fully content.

I would start with a GKMB800... loud as hell, can keep up with anything when paired with a decently efficient cab. Not terribly expensive at about $500 (you can buy the 500 watt version on Talkbass today for $350). Then find a cab. Nice thing about the GK is that it is tiny, so if you go out to try cabs you can take it with you.

I would start with a 212 cab. It is kind of midway between a 410 and a 115, so it offers a balance of the two and for me is and ideal starting point. does your cab have to be super portable? Try two 112 cabs. you want more mid-punch? Go 410. More "boom"? Go 115. Way more "boom"? Go 215. Want a warmer sound? Try the tube version of the MB800. Or the new Mesa mini head. It never ends...

BUT, start with as much power as you can reasonably afford, then go try cabs with that head if at all possible.

Just my $.02 USD... or about $10.00 CDN

 

[Pyrate]

Are you one that prefers a combo system or a split system? My experience, you should be safe looking at 500W as a start (this gives you some maneuvering room as needed) going into a 2x10. Then you can build up later. Currently I'm using a 1600W head unit (that does have tubes in for that warmth when needed or if needed) into two cabinets (2x10, and 1x15). This is a heavy beast to move around, so that is something to think on as well. Others mentioned DI, that is an option as well.

 

[Wasnex]

I don't get out much anymore these days, but I did the entirety of my gigging days with my Ashdown ABM 500 and Eden WT550 being the most powerful amps I ever owned. Can't say that at any point in 30+ years did I feel like I needed more wattage, or headroom. If 500 watts into a 410 wouldn't do the trick, then I added another cabinet. Problem solved. The trend towards more and more power just has me shaking my head.

Try to imagine for a moment a 1200w SVT, or a 2400w class A/B? It would be absurd right? But we accept it just fine as a class D product. Certainly opens the door for the old "Are all watts created equal" debate now doesn't it?

Whether 500 watts is enough depends upon the efficiency of cab and your tonal goals. For example, 500 watts pushing and pair of Eden 410XLTs will be very different than pushing an pair of Acme 410 Low Bs.

Also, keep in mind that different amp designs vary in regards to how they are rated and how much dynamic headroom they can produce. Some amps can produce continuous unclipped power that is well above their rating. Others don't even make spec. One amp may provide more continuous power, while another may be able to produce more dynamic power (clean peak power). In my experience, many traditional solid state designs tend to be able produce peaks that are 3 or more db above their rated continuous power. The lightweight designs I have used tend to either sound really bad or shut down anytime musical peaks push them much above their rated power. As a result, you may find that moving up from 500 to 800 watts with a class D amp may provide practical benefits.

If I am not mistaken, the general rule is doubling the speakers increases the output by 6 db at frequencies where the two systems couple perfectly. This rule applies to solid state amps. 3 db comes from doubling the radiating area and 3 db comes from doubling the power (as a result of halving the impedance from connecting the speakers in parallel). However most amps cannot supply double the current, so they clip at a lower voltage. Thus in reality you tend to gain less than 6 db of clean headroom by adding a second matching speaker.

With tube amps you gain 3 db from doubling the radiating area only. Tube amps develop maximum power when the load is matched closely to the output impedance. If a 200 watt tube amp has 2 ohm, 4 ohm, and 8 ohm taps on it's output transformer, it will develop maximum output (200 watts) only when the speaker load is properly matched to the appropriate tap.


Watts are watts. If you measure the SPL a speaker develops with 1 watt it won't matter whether the amp is tube or solid state. Tube amp tends to compress more which can result in a perception of higher average power. I believe this effect becomes more pronounced at higher power levels. Additionally the higher distortion of a pushed tube amp can enhance the perception of loudness.

 

[Bassbubble11]

Link Removed

 

[maturanesa]

350w should be fine..., you don´t need the amp in order to make the audience to hear you actually...

 

[Captain Chaos]

Over 9000

 

[kurth83]

...

If I am not mistaken, the general rule is doubling the speakers increases the output by 6 db at frequencies where the two systems couple perfectly. This rule applies to solid state amps. 3 db comes from doubling the radiating area and 3 db comes from doubling the power (as a result of halving the impedance from connecting the speakers in parallel). However most amps cannot supply double the current, so they clip at a lower voltage. Thus in reality you tend to gain less than 6 db of clean headroom by adding a second matching speaker.

Thanks for the excellent post there, but I find myself wondering if you get 3 db by doubling area without also doubling the power, because driving each speaker at half power should give you no overall increase, the amount of work is relatively the same, but spread over twice the surface area. So unless I am missing something I am thinking 3db is all you get.

I thought of it like buying two powered PA speakers, turn them both up, twice the area, twice the power, but only 3db (twice the effective loudness) gain. I don't think there is an additional 3db of magic in there anywhere.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

One important thing to remember, by the way, is that if you try a modest-sized rig and it turns out you need more, adding speakers will increase your volume a lot faster than adding wattage will. A lot of those 70s classic rock acts were only running 100w amps, but driving big refrigerator stacks with them. And they were LOUD.

Remember John Paul Jones playing for Led Zeppelin and his one bass reflex Acoustic 360...that was a 200-watt amp. I had a Standel MCIIB/SAM30 amp with a ported 2x15 cab that was louder than that and it was only a 200 or 250-watts (early 70's). Still, I would say a minimum of 300 watts for modern full range cabinets, and better yet 500 if it's in your budget. That will give you room to add on another cabinet if you need more volume.

A good 210 cab is a good start with a 212 being more versatile but also heavier to lug around. I like 212 cabs but now I run a DNS410 cab and it covers it all. Not light, but I only ever need the one cab. To be honest about it though, I am running an 800 watt amp into it (1400-watt power handling on this cab) but rarely get the master beyond about 9:30 o'clock. So I would be fine with a lot less power.

Probably best to get a 210 and then add another one to it later if needed. Most 210's are NOT going to cover a 600-capacity club, but two of them will.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Do you find that SS gets a less defined tone than tube? Or is the difference just volume?

No, the SS amps actually can give you much clearer tone. The all-valve amps will saturate the tubes at some point and start generating harmonic distortion. Some of that sounds really nice as a "warm" sound. My amp is a hybrid with a tube in the preamp section specifically to get that warmth while the power section is solid state and generates no distortion on its own.

The deal about tube amps watts vs solid state watts is that tubes can sound louder with lower watts. Had it explained nicely to me once and has to do with their ability to store more power for higher transient peaks whereas solid state amps typically have 3db headroom (twice the RMS rating). Because they are transient, such as the attack on a note, they can be louder than an SS amp with similar RMS rating. Hopefully someone will pop in here and explain it better.

Having said that, I toured with a 50-watt 1962 Fender Bassman amp in the early 70's and kept blowing speakers out of it trying to keep up with 120-watt solid-state Vox Super-Beatle amps with their 4x12 cabs. When I got my 200-250 watt SS amp with 2x15 speaker cab, I was told I needed to turn down because I was blowing them out. Bear in mind it takes a LOT more watts for your bass to be heard than it does for a guitar.

 

[GMC]

If you go class D....you get watts AND light weight
If you go Neo loaded cabs...you get watts AND light weight....but usually a skint bank account too.
If you are State side, Greenboy cabs are the ones to seriously consider. If you are EU / UK bassed, then Barefaced are worthy of your consideration. Either would probably be the last cab you will ever need to buy...unless you break one that is.
Amp wise...there's a lot to choose from. I'm currently enjoying an Ashdown class D 420w Root master amp and it's great. If money are more readily available, I would probably have gone for one of the 800w versions.

 

[GMC]

Remember John Paul Jones playing for Led Zeppelin and his one bass reflex Acoustic 360...that was a 200-watt amp. I had a Standel MCIIB/SAM30 amp with a ported 2x15 cab that was louder than that and it was only a 200 or 250-watts (early 70's). Still, I would say a minimum of 300 watts for modern full range cabinets, and better yet 500 if it's in your budget. That will give you room to add on another cabinet if you need more volume.

A good 210 cab is a good start with a 212 being more versatile but also heavier to lug around. I like 212 cabs but now I run a DNS410 cab and it covers it all. Not light, but I only ever need the one cab. To be honest about it though, I am running an 800 watt amp into it (1400-watt power handling on this cab) but rarely get the master beyond about 9:30 o'clock. So I would be fine with a lot less power.

Probably best to get a 210 and then add another one to it later if needed. Most 210's are NOT going to cover a 600-capacity club, but two of them will.

Horn or folded cabs are a way of seriously increasing the SPL per watt. Tannoy Westminster 15" dual concentric loud speakers are my case in point. Incredibly loud speakers...all because of the horn and folded cabs. Back in the day when amps were all valve and wattage was very hard to come by...cab space / land was cheap and it was easier to build efficient cabs than big powerful amps. These days we are spoiled with our 800w class D micro heads and Neo 1x12" cabs.

 

[GMC]

One last point to consider...one has to double wattage to gain a paltry 3db increase in SPL. So the difference between a 150w and 600w amp is only 6db. The typical SPL at 1w / 1m for a 1x12" cab is around 90db. A typical 2x12" or 4x10" cab is usually around 100 db. So the 4x10 / 2x12 cab will require an amp which is 8 times less powerful for the same SPL output. OR the same amp will be noticeably louder though the 2x12 / 4x10 cab. Efficient cabs make an amp work a lot less for their loudness / spl.

 

[cchorney]

It so very much depends on what make and model amp you buy, what make and model cab you buy, and the sound you are looking for. I almost always play thru a PA, but I find the monitor mix to usually be lacking in the mix no matter how the sound check goes. So I have enough sound to hear myself over the drums thru my own means. I prefer an 8 ohm 115 or 210 cab at 300 watts as my rehearsal rig, with a second 8 ohm cab, thus pushing (or is it pulling?) the amp to produce 500 watts. I run Markbass, and the single 210 will run out of gas way before the amp, especially if you go for a "70's with a bit of dirt" sound. Not so with the added second 210. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks for the excellent post there, but I find myself wondering if you get 3 db by doubling area without also doubling the power, because driving each speaker at half power should give you no overall increase, the amount of work is relatively the same, but spread over twice the surface area. So unless I am missing something I am thinking 3db is all you get.

I thought of it like buying two powered PA speakers, turn them both up, twice the area, twice the power, but only 3db (twice the effective loudness) gain. I don't think there is an additional 3db of magic in there anywhere.

As I am not a studied acoustic engineer so I am unqualified to explain fully, but basically I believe you are doubling the power and also increasing the efficiency of the system through doubling the radiating area. The 6 db gain only occurs if acoustic centers of the speakers are within 1/4 wavelength of one another.

I believe adding a second speaker in parallel that is not within 1/4 wavelength will result in the 3 db gain you mention. This is average gain measured throughout the room.

Here's a quote from Bill Fitzmaurice from another forum:

"When drivers/speakers are doubled, parallel wired and placed less than 1/4 wavelength apart, mutual coupling gives you 3dB, while the halved impedance load gives another 3dB. Total gain: 6dB."

Source: Invalid Link Removed

 

[kurth83]

Ok, so there is magic good to know, depends on the speakers being within coupling distance. Thanks for the info.

 

[Windreaper]

Horn or folded cabs are a way of seriously increasing the SPL per watt. Tannoy Westminster 15" dual concentric loud speakers are my case in point. Incredibly loud speakers...all because of the horn and folded cabs. Back in the day when amps were all valve and wattage was very hard to come by...cab space / land was cheap and it was easier to build efficient cabs than big powerful amps. These days we are spoiled with our 800w class D micro heads and Neo 1x12" cabs.

Ayep, horn-loaded speakers are an interesting subject. I'm a big fan of Bill Fitzmaurice's designs, too bad he doesn't post on TB anymore (I guess all the cab mixing threads finally got to him). I designed and built a small horn-loaded cab around a spare RCF 10" midbass, and while the horn is too short to properly load the driver all the way down, the off-axis response is very good. Requires a bit of EQ to sound good, though. That's the thing about horn-loaded cabs in general, they can sound wildly different depending on design parameters (even when loaded with the exact same driver). I guess most of the bad rap comes from some older horns that were designed to be loud at the expense of sounding good. But I digress.