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Double Bass Newest basket case

#21
Hang in there.... the way the dollar is tanking there won't be any incentive to outsource anything anymore. Double-edged sword, I know.

And +1 to Jake -- all in perspective. Personally I'd prefer to just not use any of the stuff. Just having solvents (denatured alcohol even, and paint thinner) in my basement makes me nervous. I never bothered learning to change my oil because I can't dispose of it anyway.
 
#23
Bob Branstetter said:
Thank you for you input. Apparently, enforcement is very different depending on where you happen to reside. I asked the local paint & varnish store about it and they told me that Nitrocellulose Lacquer was still one of their largest selling items. I guess it is safe to say that I'm not the only one using it around here in the Midwest.

This is yet another example of why so many companies and corporations are now outsourcing their manufacturing facilities to places without the EPA and OSHA regulations.
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I can't speak to the the OSHA regulations but I am familiar with air quality regulation in the U.S. (BTW - I'm an engineer, not a lawyer) Basically, the requirements of the Federal Clean Air Act and EPA's responsibility are codified in [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. This has the regulated pollutants and the National Ambient Air Quality Standards (NAAQS) defined. Eric is correct, the pollutants in question are VOCs because they contribute to the formation of ground level ozone, which is the NAAQS pollutant.

Where the confusion comes in is that EPA delegates the authority to regulate air quality to the states. The states have to come up with a strategy (State Implementation Plan) to keep the regulated pollutants below the NAAQS limits. Areas that excede the limits for ozone (typically urban areas where unburned hydrocarbons in auto exhaust are a large source of VOCs) typically restrict emissions of these pollutants. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. Same law, different situations, and much confusion.
 
#24
Nicely done! Thanks for picking up where I so woefully left off. You have done a great job of closing the informational loop.

For Bob, then, it seems the remaining relevant issues are about insurance coverage in case of an incident. One question is whether of not to fret about it, another question could be what his insurance company's expectations mean for his operation's finishing.

Sounds like residential zoning restrictions are probably irrelevant, since the scale of operations is modest (assuming that you are friendly with the neighbors) :).
 
#28
Eric Swanson said:
Nicely done! Thanks for picking up where I so woefully left off. You have done a great job of closing the informational loop.
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Thanks Eric. I know we're getting way off topic but as with all things bureaucratic it's really not as simple as I made it sound. In addition to the seven pollutants regulated under the NAAQS, there are [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (HAPs) also regulated under the Clean Air Act. The solvent used in a particular lacquer may fall in this category and be subject to additional regulations.

As for Arnold's DIY disposal (and I suspect he's yanking our chain on that), that's a whole different set of regulations that deal with water quality and release of hazardous materials. I started to suggest that if he sends me a New Standard La Scala I'd promise not to turn him in, but that would be both unethical and illegal on my part :D. So, in the absence of any direct evidence, I'm assuming that he's kidding and I'm minding my own business. :cool:
 
#29
I really like Nitro Lacquer. I'm not a fan of it on Double Basses although if I was "restoring" a Kay I'd shoot it with lacquer.

I've been shooting lacquer for almost 2 decades in my guitar work. The change in VOC laws in the 90s required lacquer manufacturers to significantly slow the gassing off of lacquer. The old paint we used to use was no longer available and the new paint so different we had to retool our finishing schedules and our color matching practices. As such our drying times multiplied by 4 or 5 and there are some aspects of "vintage" finishes that we can no longer duplicate.

Regardless it does require safety measures to store, process, spray and dispose of. It's not stuff that the average home hobbyist wants to have around the house. I'd never have that stuff in my house. We have it stored in explosion containment lockers, the rags and sundry disposables are kept in fire containment trash containers and the discards are removed periodically by a disposal company. We shoot in a specially constructed booth with a huge exhaust fan wearing protective equipment.

In spite of that I think I'm even more stupid for it.

It is not illegal or restricted in the State of Ohio. Laws vary from state to state but so far we are still able to work freely with it.

Huge manufacturing probably can't use it but really wouldn't want to. There are lots of great less nasty finishes available that hold up better than lacquer. Gibson and Martin still shoot quite a bit of lacquer. Besides the furniture industry and the car and guitar restoration places lacquer is becoming obsolete.

That's as it should be I think. We are all better off without it.
 
#30
Okay!!! With that lively discussion, I am back to the beginning…we will attempt to use oil varnish. It has proven to be quite a challenge to remove the black paint with out damaging the original finish that has been left behind. We will get over the first hurdle of getting the black paint off, and then decide to strip it to bare wood or try and blend a new finish to the old finish. Either way it should be fun! Thanks again for the lively discussion. :D
 
#31
MollyKay said:
Okay!!! With that lively discussion, I am back to the beginning…we will attempt to use oil varnish. It has proven to be quite a challenge to remove the black paint with out damaging the original finish that has been left behind. We will get over the first hurdle of getting the black paint off, and then decide to strip it to bare wood or try and blend a new finish to the old finish. Either way it should be fun! Thanks again for the lively discussion. :D
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M Kay .... You Go Girl ... You Too Monkey :D . Please show pics of your progress on the latest Kay gutter case. I still want to strip down my nasty pawn-shop '64 S-1 but I ain't about to shoot lacquer if I can help it. I'm sure I'd blow meself up or at least ruin my bass-playin' brain parts (are there bass playin' parts ? .... very primitive to be sure !) from sniffin' too many vapours :p . I liked using a satin Watco oil finish on my '40 Kay when I re-finished her .... not traditional Kay nitro but I least I didn't get too goofy afterwards .... in fact the house smelled pretty "earthy" as the Watco out-gassed. Probably wasn't good for me but at least I didn't feel like my house was the Hindenburg about to light off.
 
#32
Bob Knebel said:
M Kay .... You Go Girl ... You Too Monkey :D . Please show pics of your progress on the latest Kay gutter case. I still want to strip down my nasty pawn-shop '64 S-1 but I ain't about to shoot lacquer if I can help it. I'm sure I'd blow meself up or at least ruin my bass-playin' brain parts (are there bass playin' parts ? .... very primitive to be sure !) from sniffin' too many vapours :p . I liked using a satin Watco oil finish on my '40 Kay when I re-finished her .... not traditional Kay nitro but I least I didn't get too goofy afterwards .... in fact the house smelled pretty "earthy" as the Watco out-gassed. Probably wasn't good for me but at least I didn't feel like my house was the Hindenburg about to light off.
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Watco oil finish without a respirator is probably worse than nitro with one. Gotta keep things in proper perspective here. Every finishing procedure has some hazards, even the ETOH in Shellac is bad for the eyes.
 
#33
Ken McKay said:
Watco oil finish without a respirator is probably worse than nitro with one. Gotta keep things in proper perspective here. Every finishing procedure has some hazards ....
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Thanks for the wisdom and warnings Ken :) . I (and I'm sure other readers) really appreciate the info. I only did a quick coat of touch-up Watco on my bass in an isolated room in the house with the windows open last summer but I will be more careful next time to wear an organic / volatile vapors / activated carbon / canister mask anytime I do this again in the future. Lord Knows .... I need to save what brain cells I have left from the "vapors" I experienced in the late '60's :D .
 
#34
Ken McKay said:
Watco oil finish without a respirator is probably worse than nitro with one. Gotta keep things in proper perspective here. Every finishing procedure has some hazards, even the ETOH in Shellac is bad for the eyes.
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It all comes down to knowing how to safely use these products along with a little common sense. FWIW, many of the chemical components and natural dyes used in making oil varnish are deadly poisons and some are highly explosive in certain situations. Then there are concentrated acids... :)
 
#35
Wow, I'm amazed at the negative reaction to spraying lacquer. Ever visit the Engelhart factory? Worse yet visit a Gibson guitar factory? Imagine how much lacquer thinner they're pumping out into the air. And if you're concerned about blowing up use an explosion proof fan like you should be using in a spray booth.

You know you can spray waterbourne lacquer with no harmful emissions. What about brushing lacquer with the retarder? Ever tried that? It's a pain and you have to know how to use a brush but it works. You know it's funny: vintage guitar aficionados consider old time lacquer a superior finish but it really isn't. The reason why auto and furniture manufacturers don't use it any more is because something better has come along. Nitrocellulose lacquer is considered lousy paint. It's saving grace is that subsequent coats melt in, making for easily repaired finishes.
 
#36
Actually, I have a very simple reason for using nitrocellulose lacquer on my restored Kay basses. It is much easier to sell a restored Kay for top dollar if it looks like a Kay in excellent condition rather than just another "refinished" Kay. It's taken me a long time to learn how to get that look. I bought an HVLP gun several years ago and tried spraying waterbourne (CrystaLac) lacquer with dyes, but "look" is not the same as Nitrocellulose. However, I sprayed the large Cherrywood bar in my music room with it and it looks great. Deft (brushing lacquer) is good for a lot of things around the house, but I don't believe that basses are one of them.
 

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