Double Bass Newly developed microphone for Double-bass - Remic D5400LB

[Anton Johannes]

Interesting... How the mic's work on a gig or recording session is what matters - however, I also look forward to hearing your recordings

I too will return with some soundclips of the D5400LB (which initially did not sound so great). I tried moving it around to find the perfect spot on my bass. It works much like a contact-mic and condenser combined. Therefore finding the right spot on the deck seems to be crucial.

On my bass I found that the most balanced result was with the Remic D5400LB positioned between the bridge legs: The low-end was under control and there was more of a midrange presence to the sound. My plan is to record the sound in the room, with a mic at some distance:
1. acoustic sound of the bass.
2. Sound of bass + PA amplification.

I am able to get a quit loud and clean signal through the PA without feedback. Very interesting to me, since I would love to get a more accurate acoustic amplification of my bass - also for loud volume gigs.

Cheers,
Johs

 

[flatback]

This thread piqued my interest enough to research the other reviews of it on the web, and finally to contact Thor about auditioning the mic with the specific interest of finding out how well it sounds in a real gigging environment thru an amp in jazz. Although the pickings are slim to hear this mic in a jazz context and on bass, there is enough out there to get an idea. Reading the mission statement of Thor's design coupled with some of the audio clips has got my ears.
Everytime I hear myself rationalize the different pickup sounds that I settle for, I want for something better, then I get out the mics and cables and take it to a gig and it turns into a drag both on my psyche and on the music. When I am content with the Pickup, I know it is because it is easy to use, I can HEAR myself and I get pitch and rhythm and drive, and no feedback or ambient noise and just concentrate on the music. But then I hear a well mic'd bass on record or watch Larry Grenadier on Youtube and I think man there has to be a way to get a more representative sound.
Anyway, Thor is going to send me a Mic (I hope both of them...) to review and play on some gigs and I am looking forward to it. There seem to be a lot of issues cleverly and creatively addressed in his designs, i.e. multi polar patterns, condenser mic, combination between contact and ambient micing, low profile, feedback resistant, high gain, airy yet direct sound, phase cancellation issues addressed etc. The mic is expensive though and I think on that level it has a high bar. I believe that the market for pickups and mics is fairly saturated and with the new designs in speaker cabs and preamps even disregarded older pickups can sound as good as the newer ones (which are only half bad), so a mic like this would need to be stellar to command such a premium. (how many of us bought the 4099B thinking it was going to do the trick only to relegate it to a drawer?) On the other hand, a nearly invisible mic, that has high gain/low feedback, no phasing, acoustic music sound,etc. could be just what I am looking for and finally an answer to how to amplify a bass.(for me) We'll see.

 

[flatback]

Thor indulged me with a few more specifics (that go right over my head) that I thought I would share,...
...


Let me try to explain the basics of the "LB" model in another way.



About the "LB" model - here the air molecules can affect both sides of the membrane (like a mic with cardioid polar pattern )- one side of the membrane is facing the front of the mic and the other side is open, via a internal sound channel, to the soundboard of the instrument.



When the soundboard of the instrument is affected by any ambient sound, these changes will affect the rear side of the membrane. At the same time the front of the membrane will be affected as well and the energy pressure of the air molecules will phase out the movement of the membrane, meaning a good isolation from any ambient sound.



The construction also enables the polar pattern of the proximity sound field to create a dual-spherical polar pattern and the polar pattern of the ambient sound filed will stay omni directional.



Now - there's a "catch" - the phase, the angle, the distance between the mic and soundboard , the timing of the speed of sound through wood and air, the materials used - the degree of diffusion, is some of the tricky parameters when designing these mics.



Now all of our microphones has been designed on the basis of linear/nonlinear energy displacement processes and not on the basis of electroacoustics.



The results we have achieved on this project is not possible to achieve using any theories according to electro acoustics.



Also the mic cartridge itself has an extreme fast attack response - this results in a high level of transient output - and an aggressive frequency response (for the

cartridge itself) from app. 6Hz to app 23KHz ( full freq. response reaches + 30 KHz ).




....


So there you have it. looking forward to trying it on stage in real life situations...

 

[MrSidecar]

Thor indulged me with a few more specifics (that go right over my head) that I thought I would share,...
...


Let me try to explain the basics of the "LB" model in another way.



About the "LB" model - here the air molecules can affect both sides of the membrane (like a mic with cardioid polar pattern )- one side of the membrane is facing the front of the mic and the other side is open, via a internal sound channel, to the soundboard of the instrument.



When the soundboard of the instrument is affected by any ambient sound, these changes will affect the rear side of the membrane. At the same time the front of the membrane will be affected as well and the energy pressure of the air molecules will phase out the movement of the membrane, meaning a good isolation from any ambient sound.



The construction also enables the polar pattern of the proximity sound field to create a dual-spherical polar pattern and the polar pattern of the ambient sound filed will stay omni directional.



Now - there's a "catch" - the phase, the angle, the distance between the mic and soundboard , the timing of the speed of sound through wood and air, the materials used - the degree of diffusion, is some of the tricky parameters when designing these mics.

Well,

with all respect- that is all fine and dandy. But IMHO all that talk does nothing to make the sound of the 5400LB any better. To me, it still sounds really bad. Especially when listened to with the price tag in mind.

Now all of our microphones has been designed on the basis of linear/nonlinear energy displacement processes and not on the basis of electroacoustics.

The results we have achieved on this project is not possible to achieve using any theories according to electro acoustics.

I don't know, and excuse me for being snappy, but maybe a little more thought on the basis of electroacoustics in the development of the microphone might have improved the result.


Oh, and flatback: Be sure I'm not aiming at you, as I know that you quoted somebody else in your post. No offence.

Best
Sidecar

 

[flatback]

No offense taken S and none back at you but just as the Stat B sounded terrible in those clips (yet I use one and can attest that in the context of a band and coming out of an amp the sound is drastically different) I am sure willing to give each of those capsules a test in the real world, which to me is where it is at: I record with a $2000 tube condenser, but I don't play it live and listening to those clips straight into the board does nothing for me because I don't use equipment that way ( I use a pickup or live mic thru a PA or amp and a Studio mic to record with). Much more interesting is the live youtube clips of string sections using the mic, although I have heard only one jazz context recording (and it sounded pretty good) although it didn't specify what mic was being used and there was a singer, so there is that. Thor says that Chris Min Doky is using one now.
I'm not drinking the koolaid, but I do love smart inventors who have making my job better as their life's goal, and I am always game to try it if it seems to have merit. I've got drawers full of stuff I dont use anymore but I also have the AI Focus, Headway and MAS 46, as part of my daily life and I am sure glad those inventor cats came up with these crazy cool sounding devices.
I use my ears on a gig to tell me the things I need to know about amplification....the other night I got to play a duo gig in a restaurant with a grand piano and no amp and because the room was good and because there were no diners because the owner had fired most of the wait staff and it was raining out and because there was no drummer and no traffic because of the rain, it sounded utterly stellar.It was my bass only louder.

 

[Nathan Levine]

the other night I got to play a duo gig in a restaurant with a grand piano and no amp and because the room was good and because there were no diners because the owner had fired most of the wait staff and it was raining out and because there was no drummer and no traffic because of the rain, it sounded utterly stellar.It was my bass only louder.

Ahhhh, no patrons, employees, or ambient noise. Sounds like a perfect acoustic setting. My bass only louder indeed!

 

[vin*tone]

2 weeks later and the D5400 arrived. Got a chance to mess with it a bit before rehearsal last night. Initial impressions through a MAS 25 were very positive. The mic completely disappears under the fingerboard. On a break I turned it up for the two guitars players sitting next to me to hear. Astonishment ensued. "WHAT is that thing and how does it sound so good?" I wish I had better answers. I will do my best to rig up the Remic, DPA and Troll in a few weeks to record a few samples. Until then...

I'd love to hear a recording compared to the Troll.

 

[Nathan Levine]

I'll try to get it done tonight.

 

[MrSidecar]

No offense taken S and none back at you but just as the Stat B sounded terrible in those clips (yet I use one and can attest that in the context of a band and coming out of an amp the sound is drastically different) I am sure willing to give each of those capsules a test in the real world, which to me is where it is at: I record with a $2000 tube condenser, but I don't play it live and listening to those clips straight into the board does nothing for me because I don't use equipment that way ( I use a pickup or live mic thru a PA or amp and a Studio mic to record with). Much more interesting is the live youtube clips of string sections using the mic, although I have heard only one jazz context recording (and it sounded pretty good) although it didn't specify what mic was being used and there was a singer, so there is that. Thor says that Chris Min Doky is using one now.
I'm not drinking the koolaid, but I do love smart inventors who have making my job better as their life's goal, and I am always game to try it if it seems to have merit. I've got drawers full of stuff I dont use anymore but I also have the AI Focus, Headway and MAS 46, as part of my daily life and I am sure glad those inventor cats came up with these crazy cool sounding devices.
I use my ears on a gig to tell me the things I need to know about amplification....the other night I got to play a duo gig in a restaurant with a grand piano and no amp and because the room was good and because there were no diners because the owner had fired most of the wait staff and it was raining out and because there was no drummer and no traffic because of the rain, it sounded utterly stellar.It was my bass only louder.

Flatback,

of course the usage of a device means a lot- direct recordings of pickups indeed do very rarely sound good, and are rarely used for anything. And the cab and room go into the equation as well- I'm in on that. And I agree that of course a system has to be tried to be judged... It's just that my skepticism grows proportionally to the amount of (sometimes purposefully) mystic information about the background of a device. I have to admit, that made it a tough one for my MAS26 cab (I remember some of Big E's (?) promo material about this manipulated vortex thing as being unbelievably weird), but as soon as I experienced how it sounded, I was sold. Maybe that would be the case with the 5400LB.

best
Sidecar

 

[Nathan Levine]

As promised... a short demo of the Remic and the Troll, and a blended signal too.

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Please be kind on the dodgy intonation... it's late.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I think the blend sounds pretty good. Surprised at how dark the troll sounds. Do you have a feel for how much ambient noise either or both of these pics will add to that signal through an amp?

 

[Nathan Levine]

The Troll has surprised me lately with its darkness too. So much so that I wondered for a little while if something had gone wrong with it. This is of course no eq and direct into the computer. Rolling off some bass and engaging a HPF does wonders.

As for the ambient noise coming through each mic, there is certainly a bit of bleed that happens, especially in a loud setting. But with the Troll at least there is still plenty of usable signal. I don't get the sense with the Remic that it is any better or worse than the Troll in this department.

 

[flatback]

Thanks Nathan
Very interesting to hear...I do find it difficult to judge these kinds of live mic situations recorded straight to the board...But lots of promise there...I like the mix too although 2 mics on a gig into an amp....

 

[Nathan Levine]

Two mics into an amp in a live setting does seem silly.... but the Clarus has two channels, so why not? The reality here is that both mics work quite well into the AI > MAS 45 combo on their own. Guess I should leave a channel open for when I want / need / desire to fuss with the Ehrlund or loosen the strings to reinstall the Lifeline.

Interesting side note, when I was setting up the recording I plugged the Troll into one channel and the Ehrlund into the other. Without messing with mix levels, the combo of the two sounded pretty darn good. Strangely similar to the Remic / Troll blend in fact. Perhaps I'll explore that one further since everything is all set up now and ready to go.

 

[flatback]

Yeah man experiment. For what I do (which is playing jazz in loud clubs and restaurants thru an amp with drums) the EAP or two mics is two much of a unpredictable thing. I generally like to have one balls out pickup on there for when I really need it. But the other channel ...it isnt THAT much of a pain to have a double lead to the amp (1/4 and xlr) and if the mic was the right sound paired with a pickup, I could really see it working (and has in the past ...when I had the Troll) I really like the Stat B not because it sounds like an unamped bass, but because it has a really nice low end coupled with a really nice high end (the mids on everything are poopie)...out of an amp, and I can hear myself on stage and it isn't that 70's sound. If the Remic can cover duo gigs and light trio and be mixed for larger ensembles and FOH for when I've got it (....same applys to the Troll which I really like and have not at all rejected and is half the price of the Remic) I could do that slightly more complicated thing....Also Andrea Spada is making me this small size travel bass and somehow I think a mic like the Remic might work better with that...but I dont have either yet to try....

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Hey Anton, In your bass pic, the Stat B looks like it's floating and not making contact at the bottom of the element. Please explain.

 

[flatback]

Hey Eric...I think that the active side of a Stat B is the CORK side, so the way he has it ( I noticed too it is wedged off the edge on the shim wouldnt matter much as long as the pressure is there on the cork side) I'm wrong about a lot of things so I could be here but that's my take....

 

[Anton Johannes]

Hi Eric,
The Stat-B is supported by a small wooden wedge. You can change the angle of the element, which alters the sound.

Nice to hear the D5400/Troll comparison. Of the three clips I prefer the D5400 by itself.

I have tested both the Remic's on gigs and will try to pass on my experience so far.

My usual setup is the Schertler Stat-B pickup. I use a HP-filter, cut the midrange (a lot) and also add a bit of reverb. This gives me a dark punchy sound and warm arco-tone.

For a duo singer/songwriter gig I used the D5400 direct to the board and no amp. It work out fine and I enjoyed handing over all responsibility to the sound engineer. However... I missed being able to adjust the volume. I also missed some of the low-end punch I am used to getting from my amp.

Conclusion: For a gig without drummer (where I know there is a good sound-system + engineer) I would not hesitate to bring just the D5400. On all other gigs I will bring my usual pick-up/amp + the Remic D5400. Sending the D5400 signal directly to the sound engineer. This will give me the best of both worlds - low end punch for on-stage monitoring + giving the sound engineer a chance to work his magic.

I REALLY enjoy the mic'ed sound of my bass. The D5400 is the best product for this purpose, that I have tried. The mic can be placed under the fingerboard or under the tailpiece. Both positions work well.

Finally: The D5400LB is an interesting piece of engineering. There is an abundance of loud low-end, which a regular condenser can't give you. I have tried different positions (tale-piece, bridge, finger-board) during a sound-check. Letting the engineer decide, which worked best. We used it in the "under the neck" position. The result was not satisfying to me - the bottom-end was very deep but difficult to control. It worked best for arco playing. Thor from Remic told me that they are developing a new mic which has less of the LB bottom-end.

Cheers,
Anton Johannes

 

[flatback]

I will be getting the two mic's for review soon. Thor says he tweeked the 5400LB to sound less honky. I just re listened to the examples in this thread with some nice earphones ( as opposed to computer speakers)....they sound good. What counts here is how they sound in the context of live playing thru an amp and or a PA...I plan on using them in a variety of contexts and blending them with different pickups.
The form factor is pretty great if it worked on its own. I really like the idea of a hidden piece of foam with a noiseless cloth cord and no hardware all over the tailpiece.
THe concept of an mini omni up next to the face of the instrument ( as opposed to a contact mic) is really appealing to me...I have tried all the contact mics Vektor, Dyn B, EAP and what I don't like about them is that they pick up the glassy contact sound first...underneath that there is a bunch of goodness but its that over emphasis that does not sound like a bass to me...I even prefer bridge pickups that sound less acoustic, but don't have that weird glassy surface sheen. But a mini Omni VERY CLOSE to the surface so that it picks up the sound coming off the face and the sound in the vicinity of the front of the instrument while limiting the bleed (seemingly in a number of ways from the foam to putting it behind the tailpiece to whatever goes into the foam) seems like a robust new idea. Looking forward to auditioning the mics.

 

[drurb]

... [from Thor]Now all of our microphones has been designed on the basis of linear/nonlinear energy displacement processes and not on the basis of electroacoustics. The results we have achieved on this project is not possible to achieve using any theories according to electro acoustics.

Oh, my goodness. Not if one includes vibrational transmission as part of the acoustics. Just because one set of constructs was used, even assuming that was the more parsimonious set, doesn't mean that another set cannot explain the outcomes.

Please understand that I'm making no comment regarding the quality of the device. I just find it well, amusing, that the operation of so many new and fine devices (amps, speaker cabs, mics) are touted as being incapable of being accounted for by traditional theory. It's been going on for many decades.