Next Level - Outlining Chords in Jazz

[conttador]

Im getting to a point where I feel comfortable playing major, minor, diminished, half diminished chords etc…

I want to start incorporating #9s, #11ths etc. I understand that an #11 is in essence a sharp 4th so I’m wondering how you guys, in the context of harmony, approach these chords and how do you help enhance the sound.

 

[Nashrakh]

The easiest and least intrusive way to incorporate them is to use them as chromatic approach notes on weak beats (so, if you play the 5th on beat three, play the #11 on beat two). That may also sound a bit vanilla, but that's a question of style.

 

[mambo4]

I’m wondering how you guys, in the context of harmony, approach these chords

Normally I think in 1 3 5 7 and moving between them
If an extension is indicated , the rule is: don't clash
Otherwise I ignore it, mostly. Other instruments will play it.
On occasion a sequence of extended chords will indicate a cool step wise or chromatic line I can cop

After banging my head against 'weird' jazz progressions for years
I concluded that chord choices are best understood as one of three things

• functional (I ii iii IV V vi ) analysis
• subs: secondary dominants, flat 5 subs, or borrowed chords
• voice leading

But at the end of the day I navigate form root to root , listen, and don't clash.

 

[albertus]

The easiest and least intrusive way to incorporate them is to use them as chromatic approach notes on weak beats (so, if you play the 5th on beat three, play the #11 on beat two). That may also sound a bit vanilla, but that's a question of style.

I go the opposite way. If you want to make that sound you need to NOT make it an approach note. play it in a strong beat with a leap after if possible. I'll try to explain myself because my english is not my first lenguage: for C7(#11) I would play C G F# Bb as the walking line

 

[conttador]

I go the opposite way. If you want to make that sound you need to NOT make it an approach note. play it in a strong beat with a leap after if possible. I'll try to explain myself because my english is not my first lenguage: for C7(#11) I would play C G F# Bb as the walking line

So you’re playing the 5th on the 2nd beat and the #11th on 3. The 4 would depend on the next chord…

Thank you, I’ll play around with this approach!

 

[Snarf]

Are you talking about soloing or accompanying?

 

[conttador]

Are you talking about soloing or accompanying?

Accompanying. Still trying to shore up my foundations.

 

[Snarf]

Accompanying. Still trying to shore up my foundations.

Ok. How much listening to recordings do you do? What artists and records are you listening to?

 

[conttador]

Ok. How much listening to recordings do you do? What artists and records are you listening to?

Tons of listening!

Coltrane, Miles, Hank Mobley, Horace Silver, the list goes on… Lots of Blue Note, Prestige, Capitol & Atlantic Jazz to name a few.

 

[Donald Thompson]

No seems to mention to always hit the root of the chord on the first beat? You can pretty much play whatever on the weaker beats.

 

[conttador]

No seems to mention to always hit the root of the chord on the first beat? You can pretty much play whatever on the weaker beats.

Appreciate the tip but I’m trying to focus on helping the harmony. My current approach is to play chord notes (1, 3, 5, 7 etc), scale tones or chromaticism. I’m looking for guidance on incorporating these raised degrees into my playing.

 

[Tuur]

Tons of listening!

Coltrane, Miles, Hank Mobley, Horace Silver, the list goes on… Lots of Blue Note, Prestige, Capitol & Atlantic Jazz to name a few.

interesting, you mention your goal is accompanying but the listening you mention is mostly about soloists. The way I read that question was if you’re transcribing any walking bass lines. It may be a better use of your time to learn some vocabulary of great walking bass than reinventing the wheel by focusing on the theory.

 

[Groove Master]

If everybody plays the #11, then it won't sound like a #11 anymore . Same for the others chord extensions

Extensions are nice colors especially if the bass plays the root. If the bass is not playing the root, the effect is gone. If you solo then these extensions are nice landing notes. Also they can help finding what scale or mode you can play in the musical context over those chords.

 

[conttador]

interesting, you mention your goal is accompanying but the listening you mention is mostly about soloists. The way I read that question was if you’re transcribing any walking bass lines. It may be a better use of your time to learn some vocabulary of great walking bass than reinventing the wheel by focusing on the theory.

I do some of that by learning transcribed bass lines but you bring up an interesting point. I’d not thought to see what the bass is doing when playing those chords.

They’re soloists, but I’m listening to the bass primarily. So to be clearer, Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Butch Warren, Sam Jones & Scott LaFaro to name a few…

 

[conttador]

If everybody plays the #11, then it won't sound like a #11 anymore . Same for the others chord extensions

Extensions are nice colors especially if the bass plays the root. If the bass is not playing the root, the effect is gone. If you solo then these extensions are nice landing notes. Also they can help finding what scale or mode you can play in the musical context over those chords.

Can you elaborate on how one would use the extension to find the scale or mode to play over the chords?

 

[Slade N]

interesting, you mention your goal is accompanying but the listening you mention is mostly about soloists. The way I read that question was if you’re transcribing any walking bass lines. It may be a better use of your time to learn some vocabulary of great walking bass than reinventing the wheel by focusing on the theory.

soloist usually have accompaniment/are not as commonly truly solo, the accompaniment can harmonize the melody/chord structure, Im not following your thinking, can you expand on your point?

 

[Groove Master]

Can you elaborate on how one would use the extension to find the scale or mode to play over the chords?

I'll try to make sense over a forum like this one.

A given chord is analyzed by the chord before and the following one. A minor 7 chord is a good example of this principle. A Dmin on its own is impossible to analyze and finding the right scale or mode without musical context is a gamble.

So if you know a bit of theory you should know that a Dmin9 as an example cannot be a Phrygian mode because there is no major 9th in this mode because of the minor second interval at the beginning of the scale. So it is going to be a Dorian OR an Aeolian mode. The only difference between those two modes is the sixth. So even with a Dmin11 chord symbol it is impossible to identify the right scale or mode but if you have a Dmin13 then you will know that it is a Dorian mode because there is no way you can have a Major 13 in an Aeolian mode because of its minor sixth in the scale.

Same goes with the Maj9 (#11). It is going to be a Lydian. A G9 has a great chance to be a Mixolydian especially if it resolves to a CMaj.
And so on..

 

[conttador]

I'll try to make sense over a forum like this one.

A given chord is analyzed by the chord before and the following one. A minor 7 chord is a good example of this principle. A Dmin on its own is impossible to analyze and finding the right scale or mode without musical context is a gamble.

So if you know a bit of theory you should know that a Dmin9 as an example cannot be a Phrygian mode because there is no major 9th in this mode because of the minor second interval at the beginning of the scale. So it is going to be a Dorian OR an Aeolian mode. The only difference between those two modes is the sixth. So even with a Dmin11 chord symbol it is impossible to identify the right scale or mode but if you have a Dmin13 then you will know that it is a Dorian mode because there is no way you can have a Major 13 in an Aeolian mode because of its minor sixth in the scale.

Same goes with the Maj9 (#11). It is going to be a Lydian. A G9 has a great chance to be a Mixolydian especially if it resolves to a CMaj.
And so on..

I think that makes a lot of sense. In essence what you’re saying is to look at the big picture. How did we get here, the previous chord and where are we going; the subsequent chord.

As they say, the devil is in the details!

 

[Tuur]

soloist usually have accompaniment/are not as commonly truly solo, the accompaniment can harmonize the melody/chord structure, Im not following your thinking, can you expand on your point?

if you want to learn walking bass, it makes sense to stay with looking at existing bass lines. There’s also value in transcribing trumpet, sax, piano etc. solos, but wouldn’t think it should be your first point of call when studying walking bass.

For example, you may see more use of alterations on the dominant chords, building tension, than focus on extensions during the I chord.

 

[Slade N]

@ Tuur - i didnt take from OP that they were transcribing solos but get your point about dominant alterations vs extensions.

@Groove Master - your flying way above my theory analysis abilities but thanks for trying