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Not loud enough stage volume (per the gitards) in an auditorium

#21
Thanks for the replies. To answer a few questions and clarify a few things:

- both guitarists are playing through (I think) Fender twin reverbs. I think they're 2x12's and probably louder than I initially indicated.
- I don't always have the extension cabinet because I'm usually the main driver carrying us and gear - parking is typically an issue at our gigs so we try to consolidate gear.
- we are mostly dealing with the venues/events that supply a "PA" - everything from a stellar front and backline (PA, bass amp, monitors, etc.) to a craptastic, under-powered/no monitor toy. Usually adequate for vocals, but not necessarily much else.
- Yesterday, I did have my limiter on so I wasn't worried about damaging my amp.

I don't think the band's cohesive enough to get a real PA, so moving forward, I'm bringing both cabinets (regardless of the parking situation) and probably picking up another 8 ohm cabinet to be able to run my Aggie TH 350 at the full 350 watts as option #2. I'll play around with separating the cabinets, or angling one of them to make sure everyone can hear me. I'd be interested in hearing about other's experience with this.

Thanks for the help and suggestions!
 
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#23
Use your extension cab.

Also, what does your EQ look like?

Remember that even small guitar combos can be quite loud. You'll generally need a bigger rig than your guitarists will to achieve the same perceived volume.

Don't count on having PA support or monitors at gigs. People think my giant 2x15 is insane, but I have done outdoor gigs with zero PA support and been fine.
 
#24
If the PA was good for FOH, then your amp cabinet should have been sideways on stage so everyone could hear it - and the crowd would hear bass only through PA.

Ideally you need monitors , but that's not always feasible.

Just gotta do what you can. Having an open conversation with everyone during sound check is required. At that point "I can't hear the bass" comment would be met with a solution involving stage setup and amp placement.

I would suggest a vertical setup in the back corner of the stage facing the opposite front corner. That should be able to hit everyone on stage.

Also realize bass is a bit tricky sometimes with sound waves bouncing and cancelling out. I used to use an 8x8 cab at this one club. It would rattle everything at the bar across the room but in other spots you could barely hear bass. At the bar thats all you heard. I wish I could have played sitting at the bar. ;)
 
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#25
Korladis said:
Use your extension cab.

Also, what does your EQ look like?

Remember that even small guitar combos can be quite loud. You'll generally need a bigger rig than your guitarists will to achieve the same perceived volume.

Don't count on having PA support or monitors at gigs. People think my giant 2x15 is insane, but I have done outdoor gigs with zero PA support and been fine.
Click to expand...

I was actually quite happy with my EQ yesterday (auditorium without too many people) - bass turned down and bumped the mids with a little more treble. Very little boominess. And yeah, I'm just taking my extension cabinet regardless what I think is going to be there.
 
#26
bobcruz said:
Stack the 210s vertically (tallest direction in the vertical plane), but have the top cab rotated 90 degrees and point the corner of the stack to the front. This will give you the best possible spread of sound across the stage. When I do this I point the bottom cab at the drummer since he's sitting lower than anyone else.
Click to expand...
Uhhh ... one of the 210s is a combo.
 
#27
Combo or no but splaying the cabs results in a bass heavy tone that you would EQ down to maintain your sound and then require FOH to EQ back up. The non directional lows sum, as the cabs are close, but the mids and highs are directional.

You can split the cabs left and right as monitors if you have a long SPEAKER cable. Never split on smaller shows without the PA doing the room. That causes lumpy bass when one note sounds full and the next is empty.
 
#28
ashtray said:
I used to use an 8x8 cab at this one club. It would rattle everything at the bar across the room but in other spots you could barely hear bass. At the bar thats all you heard. I wish I could have played sitting at the bar. ;)
Click to expand...

This is the result of beaming which is normally far worse if your speaker cab has drivers mounted side by side - hence the reason so many speaker experts suggest to use a vertical speaker array: eg, two 210 cabs vertically rather than a 410.

Almost all 410s, 412s, 610s, 8x8, 810s etc. suffer from this but it is not apparent to the player who is onstage as the effect of beaming only becomes apparent out front of the band - if you walk around the room, you will find certain areas have masses of bass while other parts of the room have almost none.
 
#29
StraightSix said:
This is the result of beaming which is normally far worse if your speaker cab has drivers mounted side by side - hence the reason so many speaker experts suggest to use a vertical speaker array: eg, two 210 cabs vertically rather than a 410.

Almost all 410s, 412s, 610s, 8x8, 810s etc. suffer from this but it is not apparent to the player who is onstage as the effect of beaming only becomes apparent out front of the band - if you walk around the room, you will find certain areas have masses of bass while other parts of the room have almost none.
Click to expand...
That isn't beaming, it's walls bouncing bass around causing strong cancellation and strong reinforcement in different spots. The beaming of mids is still a problem. I learned to position myself on axis to x10 cabs to hear bass tone years before I learned about the physics.
 
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#33
Two Twin Reverbs against your rig isn't exactly what I'd consider to be a "fair fight". 85 tube watts can be insanely loud when pushed hard. It would be nice if the guitarists realized this and backed off a bit, but apparently they're either unaware (hard to believe), or just don't care (quite likely given your description of the situation).

Adding a cabinet to your existing rig might help close the gap somewhat, but with the attitudes of these two being what you described, I doubt you'll "win" this battle. You could maximize PA support, but again, if your guitarists are bent on afterburner volume levels, that isn't going to help much.

The remaining alternative is upsizing to a louder/more powerful rig, which would likely solve your volume issue -- but what about the drummer? Unless his kit is miked up (from what you posted, sounds like you're at the mercy of whatever PA the venue happens to have installed/rented), he's now going to have to compete against THREE loud sets of amps. What was once your issue could well become his as he struggles to keep up in the mix.

Common sense says the guitarists need to turn down. That's the easiest approach, but it might not be easy to implement. Attitudes and personalities sometimes shut out the "right thing to do" and instead go down the path of "not my problem" or "whatever". Hopefully you and your bandmates will be able to work out an appropriate solution. Good luck going forward.
 
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#35
I think Gary M hit the nail on the head on just about all counts. I didn't realize the twin reverbs had that much power, and reviewing this whole situation at band practice yesterday, the guitarists "clarified" that they cant hear the bass over their guitars (a little different than me not playing loud enough). And the drummer is starting to feel a bit buried, especially on "no PA except for vocals" gigs.

The drummer and I also brought up that he and I sometimes "lose" each other during practice, and why do the guitars need to be so loud at practice? I think our concerns fell on deaf ears (sorry, couldn't resist) and we got the "you guys just need to play louder." So, we have some crap to resolve.

For me, given the style of music we're doing, 500 watts and a vertical 4x10 should be enough. It doesn't need to be silly loud and we have played gigs where the guitars were asked to turn down by the venue.

Thanks again for the insights - some interesting ideas with placement/angling! :)
 
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#36
fishstick666 said:
I think Gary M hit the nail on the head on just about all counts. I didn't realize the twin reverbs had that much power, and reviewing this whole situation at band practice yesterday, the guitarists "clarified" that they cant hear the bass over their guitars (a little different than me not playing loud enough). And the drummer is starting to feel a bit buried, especially on "no PA except for vocals" gigs.

The drummer and I also brought up that he and I sometimes "lose" each other during practice, and why do the guitars need to be so loud at practice? I think our concerns fell on deaf ears (sorry, couldn't resist) and we got the "you guys just need to play louder." So, we have some crap to resolve.

For me, given the style of music we're doing, 500 watts and a vertical 4x10 should be enough. It doesn't need to be silly loud and we have played gigs where the guitars were asked to turn down by the venue.

Thanks again for the insights - some interesting ideas with placement/angling! :)
Click to expand...

Ah, guitarists....

I had an audition for an originals band a month or so ago. This was not some metal or hardcore punk outfit, it was white-collar guys who want to be Coldplay. The first time I showed up, only one of them was there (there's a TB thread about it), and played quite moderately through a Blues Jr. combo. The second time, the drummer and 2nd guitarist were also there, and not using the Blues Jr. "backup" amp. I don't remember what amps they were using, but... holy crap. Earsplitting. I had my Carvin combo (200 watts, 2x10) and they kept asking me to turn up till I had it absolutely cranked. My existing cover band, with this same combo, the guitarist told me to turn down when I had the volume at 4 - "whoa there, jonnie, I can hear ya just fine!"

I think the fact is that guitarists get this fetish about being loud, destroy their hearing, and then have no clue how loud they actually are.
 
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#39
Slevage said:
That's a situation where an extension cab on the opposite side of the stage works better for me than a stacked rig.

I "place" the sound where it's needed instead of trying to " throw" it there.
Works especially good at low volume too.
Click to expand...

I've done this in the past. I stopped when I walked out into the room using my wireless. There were places where all you could hear was bass and places where you could hear none. Once I tried the vertical stack I never went back and my coverage is even throughout the room.
 
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#40
BassmanPaul said:
I've done this in the past. I stopped when I walked out into the room using my wireless. The were places where all you could hear was bass and places when you could hear none. once I tries the vertical stack I never went back and my coverage is even throughout the room.
Click to expand...
The issue in the OP is stage volume---- the OP has FOH support.
No need to fill the room with PA support for the bass.
 

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