Notation and readability question?

[pmatz2]

That's the general rule. The video below goes into a lot of detail but in a nutshell, notes should be grouped together by divisions of the bar no longer than a note length two rhythmic levels larger than the smallest note in the group.

So, for example, if you're in 4/4 and the smallest division is an eighth note, you would show the half note division, since that is two rhythmic values above the smallest division. In your example of rhythms where the smallest note value is a sixteenth note, you would show quarter notes, since that is two rhythmic values above a sixteenth note.

Thanks I'll have to check it out

 

[pmatz2]

Notwithstanding what others have said about removing rests and cleary showing the 1/4-note divisions, i.e. using tied quavers across the beat rather than spanning with a crotchet, you have changed the intent of the music. To someone like me that will play the rests, those three measures sound completely different. If you want the articulation of shorter notes as in the first example, you must either leave the rests in or indicate some degree of staccato.



In 4/4 it is OK to only show the middle division, i.e. between 2 and 3. So bar 3 in the opening post is not wrong. If, however, the time signature was 2/4 then this later revision would be correct as you need to show both beats.

Thanks for the response
I did add staccato - musescore doesn't make it easy to see them

 

[SteveCS]

Thanks for the response
I did add staccato - musescore doesn't make it easy to see them

I suppose there is a point at which you must stop removing rests for the sake of removing rests. It is rather irrational and illogical to tie notes then add staccato marks, IMHO. To some folks, the only thing that matters is where each note starts - to me the point of good notation is to include as much detail as necessary to communicate the intent as clearly as possible. If the intent is for the performer to interpret, then include that also!!

 

[Old_Noob]

staccato above means play it short or half.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Coming from a woodwind background, I always looked at staccato/legato marks as signaling articulation and an intent to very slightly lengthen or shorten, not necessarily changing the time value of the written note.

 

[pmatz2]

I suppose there is a point at which you must stop removing rests for the sake of removing rests. It is rather irrational and illogical to tie notes then add staccato marks, IMHO. To some folks, the only thing that matters is where each note starts - to me the point of good notation is to include as much detail as necessary to communicate the intent as clearly as possible. If the intent is for the performer to interpret, then include that also!!

you are correct my lack of knowledge and an attempt to make it readable led me down the wrong path!

 

[pmatz2]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Coming from a woodwind background, I always looked at staccato/legato marks as signaling articulation and an intent to very slightly lengthen or shorten, not necessarily changing the time value of the written note.

being self taught I was going by this - The Norton Manual of Music Notation defines a Staccato as "a small dot placed above or below a notehead indicates shortening the value of the note by one half.

 

[Old_Noob]

being self taught I was going by this - The Norton Manual of Music Notation defines a Staccato as "a small dot placed above or below a notehead indicates shortening the value of the note by one half.

Huh.....

 

[bigjames]

I have always understood staccato as playing a note sharply, detached and separated from other notes, as opposed to legato, where the notes almost flow together. In brass instruments they are tongued very differently, but a staccato quarter note is NOT the same duration as an 8th note and a staccato 8th is not the same duration as a 16th. It is more about how they are played than how long they last.

 

[longfinger]

The main purpose of music notation is to communicate musical language from the arrange to the performer. Readability of the page should be a prime concern.

This book "Rhythmic Training" by Robert Starer, is what I learned from.
Rhythmic Training - Instructional Hal Leonard Online

It starts from zero, takes you to hero.

Going though a method like that, and you'll answer your own questions in a way that makes sense to other musicians reading your charts.

 

[bigjames]

Huh.....

I am questioning this definition myself. It is not aligned with my understanding of staccato from playing brass instruments.

 

[Old_Noob]

I am questioning this definition myself. It is not aligned with my understanding of staccato from playing brass instruments.

i played clarinet, trumpet, and alto sax....was music major in college... Stacatto was always a notation of articulation. Never heard that it actually shortened the time value if the note in a mathematical fashion.

 

[KidAmnesia]

one more change
also I don't see a way to get rid of the rest in beat 1 and 3 without altering the timing . Making beat one a dotted eight note with a staccato articulation would change the timing correct?
View attachment 4968490

Staccato indicators should be on the first figure of the tied group, where your attack is. But I don't think this reads like you intend it to.

I learned notation playing the cello, so for me using a longer figure or a shorter one and a rest is a big difference; if you want it to sound like a short note followed by a short silence, write that; It may look more complex, but it transmits the idea of short syncopated accents better than groups of tied figures with staccato articulations. If you would mute the strings before plucking the next note instead of letting it ring all the way through it, there sould be a rest there.


Edit: AFAIK staccato means to play with a sharper, more pronounced attack and a more subdued sustain, not a shorter note.

 

[bigjames]

i played clarinet, trumpet, and alto sax....was music major in college... Stacatto was always a notation of articulation. Never heard that it actually shortened the time value if the note in a mathematical fashion.

Yup. It literally means, "detached" (as opposed to legato = "tied together"). I used the Norton guides when I studied music at University, but I am questioning that definition.

 

[Old_Noob]

Yup. It literally means, "detached" (as opposed to legato = "tied together").

Right. The fact that two notes are separated because they are played staccato doesn't mean there is a rest between them. Conversely, legato notes are still separately articulated (i.e. not literally "tied-together"), just in a much more subdued fashion. Indeed, entire sections of a piece may be marked "legato" at the beginning.

 

[logdrum]

So I usually play out my ideas - orchestration in my DAW, but the act of getting the notes written out for musicians to play is manual process. You sually have to correct notation software.

being self taught I was going by this - The Norton Manual of Music Notation defines a Staccato as "a small dot placed above or below a notehead indicates shortening the value of the note by one half.

That is just wrong. Oops other have already answered. Staccato is the opposite of legato.

 

[SteveCS]

being self taught I was going by this - The Norton Manual of Music Notation defines a Staccato as "a small dot placed above or below a notehead indicates shortening the value of the note by one half.

It is more about how they are played than how long they last.

AFAIK staccato means to play with a sharper, more pronounced attack and a more subdued sustain, not a shorter note.

Right. The fact that two notes are separated because they are played staccato doesn't mean there is a rest between them.

Truth is there is no single definition of staccato. The actual execution stems far more from the artistic sensibilities and musicianship of the player and the stylistic 'mores' and norms of the genre than any deterministic rule or arithmetic relationship.

 

[Ekulati]

Firstly, it's standard convention to be able to see each beat of a measure clearly.

This. Especially if your goal for transcription is for a player to read and play it on the fly on a pro setting. And it really is more than just math, there is a good dose of art and as noted, practical convention. I did this kind of thing as a kid (first was the guitar solo from Let It Be, the single version) then when I finally went to school and studied theory I learned much better ways to do it.