Note / Chord Question

[ericboutin]

Hi all, I have a question but with my limited knowledge I"m not sure how to ask it so I'll do my best to try to explain. I'll apologize in advance. Lol

Ok I've only been playing since last August or so. So I'm definitely a newbie. I have been playing with the church choir since about October. The songs are very basic church music and I usually just play the roots adding in 5ths sometimes when a fill is needed.

Ok here is my question -- I get the music in advance so I can practice and learn the music. I usually look up the songs on youtube so I can play along. There is one guitarist whom I use quite frequently as he plays similar to how our choir plays. I use guitar sheet music and play the root notes of the chords. 90% of the time everything matches up just fine. Tonight I was practicing one of the songs. It had the two sets of chords, one with a capo (for the guitars) and then another set without capo. I always play the set without capo and everything sounds fine. Tonight when I tried to play along with the youtube guy the notes sounded off. The youtube guy was playing the capo chords. So listening and fiddling around I moved all my notes a half step back and everything lined up. This has happened twice before over the last couple months. My question is why? How come sometimes everything lines up and sounds perfect and then occasionally even though I'm playing the "chords" / root notes as written and the guitarist is playing them as written albeit with a capo I'm a half step off? Anyway I know it's probably a goofy question but I want to be able to understand. Lol. I hope I explained it enough that you can figure out what I'm asking. Thanks in advance. Eric

 

[jthisdell]

Could be tuned down a half step, sometimes it makes it easier to sing. One of my bands does this. Just a guess.

 

[Jhengsman]

Are you sure that not even accounting for the capo position, the "as written" charts you have are in the same key as the YouTube video? The charts often come in easy to sing, or easy to play for a beginning guitarist who is more sensitive to chord shapes than musicians on other instruments. Sometimes recordings are sped up or slowed down before release and other types of issues could be in play.

 

[Garret Graves]

My worship team very frequently does songs in A or G for the vocalists- so the charts I have are not in the same key as the videos provided, quite often. At this point, I just transpose if I want to play along- it’s a skill you will eventually pick up!

 

[Malcolm35]

OK you are tuned to standard tuning. So are they, however, when they bring out the capos they have changed the key. Here is a capo chart that may help.

If your music is in the key of D, but, they capo to the 3rd fret the music they produce is now in the key of F.

When the guitar guys bring out their capos or change their tuning in any way I keep to standard tuning and ask the keyboardist what key they will be playing and I do the same. Don't ask the guitar guys, their answers will probably be wrong. Stick with your keyboardist.

Any time you change from standard tuning - by using a capo, or changing to an alternate tuning, the key has been affected. That capo chart should help. I had one glued to the top of my amp.

Another hint -- Praise music is mostly just roots and your runs, fills, etc. come between verses, if someone has not already taken this space.

 

[James Collins]

I think what is happening has to deal with guitarists not knowing what they are talking about. A lot of guitarists don't know what notes they are playing. They know chord shapes and scale patterns, but not what they are actually playing. So when they put a capo on, they just call everything by the chord shape instead of the new chord name.

So maybe they put the capo on the 4th fret and say they are playing a G major because that is the shape of the chord they are playing. Really they are playing a B major chord. The guitarist might even know that the root note is the lowest note in the chord, but he doesn't know how to figure out the pattern of sharps and flats.

You should link the YouTube video you ran into the problem for better analysis.

 

[Mushroo]

I think what is happening has to deal with guitarists not knowing what they are talking about. A lot of guitarists don't know what notes they are playing. They know chord shapes and scale patterns, but not what they are actually playing. So when they put a capo on, they just call everything by the chord shape instead of the new chord name.

So maybe they put the capo on the 4th fret and say they are playing a G major because that is the shape of the chord they are playing. Really they are playing a B major chord. The guitarist might even know that the root note is the lowest note in the chord, but he doesn't know how to figure out the pattern of sharps and flats.

You should link the YouTube video you ran into the problem for better analysis.

Your guitarist is "right" to call that chord G Major (not B Major) and a music conservatory professor would mark that answer "correct" on an arranging/orchestration exam. That's how music is traditionally notated for Guitar World magazine, or in a James Taylor songbook, and so forth.

To the OP @ericboutin it sounds like you are well on your way to becoming a versatile bassist by asking these smart questions. The more styles of notation you can read and write, you will become a better communicator and a more versatile musician. I like how you weren't judgmental and you didn't instantly jump to the conclusion that the guitarists are "stupid" or "wrong." Rather, you genuinely used the opportunity to ask a good question and gain more knowledge. Do you feel like we answered your question about why a song's notes/chords are sometimes written in two different keys, when the guitarist is using a capo?

 

[James Collins]

Interesting take on it.

 

[mambo4]

How come sometimes everything lines up and sounds perfect and then occasionally even though I'm playing the "chords" / root notes as written and the guitarist is playing them as written albeit with a capo I'm a half step off?

Because the purpose of a capo is to change the "as written" chords to a new key
the fret the capo is placed at is how many half steps the key has changed.
Without the capo, you would both be playing same key, and it would work.
With the capo, the guitarist is not sounding the same chords.

If you see 2 guitar charts, capo and non-capo, the non-capo chord sheet is the "real" chords.
The capo version simplifies things for the guitar player and can be ignored.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Someone is playing the song in a different key - it happens, usually to help the singers.

 

[ericboutin]

Thanks for all the great answers!! Definitely starting to make more sense!! I will have to start making mental notes of when this occurs and see what each scenario has in common. That chart is definitely getting printed out and kept handy for sure! Thanks again for the insight!

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Your guitarist is "right" to call that chord G Major (not B Major) and a music conservatory professor would mark that answer "correct" on an arranging/orchestration exam. That's how music is traditionally notated for Guitar World magazine, or in a James Taylor songbook, and so forth.

You and I have had this argument before--cordially, I hope--and it would be tedious to rehash it all at equivalent length here. I would just interject that by no means does everyone agree with the view you express here. I submit that the guitarist is not, in fact, right, and calling a chord a G when you're fingering a G but capoed at the 4th is a bad practice that hinders communication with other musicians.

However, none of that vitiates the excellent practical point that when you encounter a situation like that as a bassist, you benefit by knowing how to deal with it, regardless of whether the guitarist is "right" or not.

 

[Mushroo]

You and I have had this argument before--cordially, I hope--and it would be tedious to rehash it all at equivalent length here. I would just interject that by no means does everyone agree with the view you express here. I submit that the guitarist is not, in fact, right, and calling a chord a G when you're fingering a G but capoed at the 4th is a bad practice that hinders communication with other musicians.

However, none of that vitiates the excellent practical point that when you encounter a situation like that as a bassist, you benefit by knowing how to deal with it, regardless of whether the guitarist is "right" or not.

I agree that it's always been a cordial and welcomed conversation. I dig the comments you just made in the "Chord chart question" thread for example.

The Nashville folks have a clever solution with their "number system." You can think "B Major" and I can think "G Major" and it's okay! Call it "Q sharp" if you want to; so long as we agree to number it "one" we can all make beautiful music together.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The Nashville folks have a clever solution with their "number system." You can think "B Major" and I can think "G Major" and it's okay! Call it "Q sharp" if you want to; so long as we agree to call it "one" we can all make beautiful music together.

There's a great deal of practical utility to that system in that setting!

 

[Papageno]

Actually, the capo turns the guitar into a transposing instrument: a guitar with capo on 1st fret is a transposing instrument in C#, with capo on 2nd fret it's a transposing instrument in D, with capo on 4th fret it's a transposing instrument in E, and so forth.

And in fact even the guitar without capo (just like the bass) is actually a transposing instrument as well since it is written one octave higher that it sounds. But since it does change the name of the note played, the transposition does not cause any difficulty of communication, unlike the use of the capo.

 

[Malcolm35]

…...The Nashville folks have a clever solution with their "number system." You can think "B Major" and I can think "G Major" and it's okay! Call it "Q sharp" if you want to; so long as we agree to call it "one" we can all make beautiful music together.

And this brings us to Nashville numbers, i.e. scale degree numbers......
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C octave.
1...2.....3....4..5...6.....7...……..8

NN and the major scale box is what I use on all my Praise music. Why? Because Praise music is mostly just roots and the changes come quickly. Takes about two minutes to transpose fake chord over to Nashville numbers. Here is a good video on the subject.

The Nashville Number System – by Chas Williams

Happy trails.

 

[ericboutin]

Wow more great info! And just to cement my newbiness.....lol.....I still couldn't figure out why it sounded strange when the guitarist in the youtube video still sounded off even when I had the above chart and information. I figured I was still just not understanding completely........Fast forward to this past weekend; my daughter was home from college where she is a music education major. She is a Band GEEK for sure (her main instrument is the Sax) and wants to be a Band Director one day (High School Marching Band) Anyway I was telling her my tale and asked her why it still sounded strange when the music says 3rd fret capo the youtube guy in on the 3rd fret capo....What's up smart daughter? Smart daughter to newbie dad after just glancing at the video-----Daddy the guitarist has the capo on the 2nd fret.............OHHHHHHH sure enough! So note to self.....make sure to pay special attention to what the guitarists are doing, not just what the music is saying! LOL. Quite a breakthrough though because then all your comments made sense!!! Thanks again to all you smart people and my smart daughter! Nice to know all that money I'm paying for college isn't going to waste!

 

[Malcolm35]

And you just built another memory the two of you can share years from now.

 

[g-dude]

Hi all, I have a question but with my limited knowledge I"m not sure how to ask it so I'll do my best to try to explain. I'll apologize in advance. Lol

Ok I've only been playing since last August or so. So I'm definitely a newbie. I have been playing with the church choir since about October. The songs are very basic church music and I usually just play the roots adding in 5ths sometimes when a fill is needed.

Ok here is my question -- I get the music in advance so I can practice and learn the music. I usually look up the songs on youtube so I can play along. There is one guitarist whom I use quite frequently as he plays similar to how our choir plays. I use guitar sheet music and play the root notes of the chords. 90% of the time everything matches up just fine. Tonight I was practicing one of the songs. It had the two sets of chords, one with a capo (for the guitars) and then another set without capo. I always play the set without capo and everything sounds fine. Tonight when I tried to play along with the youtube guy the notes sounded off. The youtube guy was playing the capo chords. So listening and fiddling around I moved all my notes a half step back and everything lined up. This has happened twice before over the last couple months. My question is why? How come sometimes everything lines up and sounds perfect and then occasionally even though I'm playing the "chords" / root notes as written and the guitarist is playing them as written albeit with a capo I'm a half step off? Anyway I know it's probably a goofy question but I want to be able to understand. Lol. I hope I explained it enough that you can figure out what I'm asking. Thanks in advance. Eric

In church settings, it’s VERY common to change the key of a song.

If you are lucky, that change will happen with enough time to practice before rehearsal. I’ve had times where I showed up and it was decided that the song would be in a different key.

 

[Malcolm35]

In church settings, it’s VERY common to change the key of a song. If you are lucky, that change will happen with enough time to practice before rehearsal. I’ve had times where I showed up and it was decided that the song would be in a different key.

See post # 16 this string. The fat lady wants it in Bb! Visualize the major scale box, place the new root and you are good to go.