I (hopefully) know the key and then it's all scale degrees after that. It makes it so much easier when someone decides that they want to sing it in a different key than the original.
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Note playing - thought process
- Thread starter ragetoca
- Start date
I thought I was the only one who started on clarinet and ended up on bass! To this day, even the thought of the texture of a reed against my tongue gives me the willies...
I tend to approach things in terms of chords and rhythm. Not that I play a lot of chords, but the chord outlines the structure of any additional notes to the root, or provide the foundation of using something other than the root. Rhythm dictates the way I approach the notes.
Numbering systems and modal systems work well within this structure since they are both related to chord structure and movement.
So if I am play a progression that is say something like G C D or 1 4 5, any note in those chords are useable and especially if you are transitioning from one chord/root note to the other, say like G to C any note in both of those chords are usable to create a melody or transition. Then when you want add a little spice to that introduce some chromatic runs or some other method to include out of chord notes or passing notes or transitional notes.
On the flip side of this, often less is more, and I will cut that stuff out to maintain a solid rhythm and bass line in a live performance, because being to busy leaves less time for the notes to bloom. At the end of the day just pick your spots to simply and stretch.
One example of simplifying is I have played Grethchin Wilson's "Here for the Party" for a decade and a half or so. And the piece on the record that about 1:50 into the song and the guitar player goes into the solo. I simplify the heck out that for several reasons. 1, The busyness takes away from maintaining the rhythm. 2. The busyness of the bass is barely perceptible by the listener (dancers) 3. If you play with one guitar player, it doesn't fit as well 4. Often times even with two guitar players, the rhythm looses it's punch.
Numbering systems and modal systems work well within this structure since they are both related to chord structure and movement.
So if I am play a progression that is say something like G C D or 1 4 5, any note in those chords are useable and especially if you are transitioning from one chord/root note to the other, say like G to C any note in both of those chords are usable to create a melody or transition. Then when you want add a little spice to that introduce some chromatic runs or some other method to include out of chord notes or passing notes or transitional notes.
On the flip side of this, often less is more, and I will cut that stuff out to maintain a solid rhythm and bass line in a live performance, because being to busy leaves less time for the notes to bloom. At the end of the day just pick your spots to simply and stretch.
One example of simplifying is I have played Grethchin Wilson's "Here for the Party" for a decade and a half or so. And the piece on the record that about 1:50 into the song and the guitar player goes into the solo. I simplify the heck out that for several reasons. 1, The busyness takes away from maintaining the rhythm. 2. The busyness of the bass is barely perceptible by the listener (dancers) 3. If you play with one guitar player, it doesn't fit as well 4. Often times even with two guitar players, the rhythm looses it's punch.
Numbers, either as degree of a scale or of a chord. Not like a calculator would, but more of like seeing it relative to a shape on the board, or a pattern my fingers have learned. Ears are there to cross-check your "math." If going on a run up or down G string, ears become primary driver, shapes not particularly useful.
On a normal day I think in intervals,
in relation to the chord of the moment
or realtion to the key of the moment
but I know what the names are too
on a good day I only think about the sound I want to make in response to what I hear
in relation to the chord of the moment
or realtion to the key of the moment
but I know what the names are too
on a good day I only think about the sound I want to make in response to what I hear
Me too, clarinet, then guitar, then bass. Now, bass clarinet also. I love it. It's so similar to bass playing. Chord tones, arpeggios, walking notes to chord changes.
I am all about numbers.
I've only ever been fluent in bass, mostly self-taught. A couple of decades ago I began juggling regular bands plus sub gigs, so I had to write out "cheat sheets" for myself to keep up. Naturally, bands often play songs in different keys than the recording so I'd encounter a situation where Band A played a song like the recording, whereas Band B played that same song in a different key. Numbers were an elegant solution: I didn't have to write out separate charts for the two keys... or transpose written letters to new letters in my brain (ouch).
I began writing out my "charts" on paper, but that quickly became unwieldy. So for the past decade I've gone electronic, using a highly simplified version of the Nashville number system: it's pure numbers; I simply intuit (or memorize) the flavor of each chord. Works great for pretty much everything except jazz (luckily for me I rarely have to hack my way thru jazz). Because it's so simplified, nearly all of the 750-plus songs in my catalog are viewable on one screen, no scrolling required.
Simplified or not, numbers have limitations: the biggest being modulations. So, I may write in "modulate up a minor 3rd", or even list the new key by letter, with the "1" becoming the new key.
As for modes: I rarely think about them per se. As with chord flavor, I typically use intuition.
Yeah, I know: if I were an actual musician I'd be fluent in both numbers and letters, have the ability to navigate proper charts, and also sight-read from sheet music. But I'm just a semi-pro weekend warrior who mostly plays bar gigs.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
I think of NOTES as the degrees of the scale within the chord being played in the moment (root, 3rd, 5th, etc etc). I think of the CHORDS as 'numbers' relative to the tonic of the song, or of the section in question (i.e. the II chord, the IV chord, etc). However, when I'm PLAYING... I don't think of the numbers at all, unless I'm reading a Nashville NUMBER chart, or someone calls out a chord number in the moment ('take it to the IV!').
That said, you shouldn't be grooving and thinking 'man... I'm gonna go to the MINOR 3RD now'. You should just be listening, and playing what you hear... but having that framework of understanding chords/tones/scale degrees is essential to being able to speak the language of the moment.
That said, you shouldn't be grooving and thinking 'man... I'm gonna go to the MINOR 3RD now'. You should just be listening, and playing what you hear... but having that framework of understanding chords/tones/scale degrees is essential to being able to speak the language of the moment.
All the above but it depends on what I’m trying to do. Other than improvisation, I’m thinking your knowledge of keyboard bass principles is a really big plus and shouldn’t be discounted.
If you did study theory harmony and chords, you need to think chordal and scalar expressed numerically - And at any point you should be able to name those notes that the chords or scale denotes. Note that thinking in numbgers enable you to communicate and play with non non-sight-reading musicians
I think it's not a matter of instrument, For me I think as stated above. I play wind, (transposing instruments) string and keys. How else can I move between them if I merely think in notes
I think it's not a matter of instrument, For me I think as stated above. I play wind, (transposing instruments) string and keys. How else can I move between them if I merely think in notes
Aha- I think you're on to something here. Yes, one is listening to others in the group, but I think it's valid to state there can be another type of "listening" going on in the background...
If I can hear the song in my mind, my voice can more easily hit the right notes when I sing.
If I can hear the song in my mind, my fingers can more easily find the notes as I play the bass.
Point being- Most of my success in rapidly picking up a song on the fly is not when the leader strums a chord, sings a line and throws out a fast quote of changes - you know -" I VI V I, and just watch me for the bridge" - that pretty much goes in one brain cell and out the other. I'm flying blind, playing a game of guess the next chord. (yes, we have a "human jukebox" type in our group, and this game is played out all too often...)
The AHA moment comes when a melody/lyric pops up that I recognize, which trigger's the song's structure in my "mind's ear" and my hands start finding their way to the proper intervals as I intuit the general direction from that internal "recording" of the song. In this way, I've found that I can play a song that I've only gotten burned into my head through incidental exposure/repetition, and though I've never played it on the instrument before, I can do remarkably well, even nailing a signature lick here and there without ever practicing. (not bragging, just an observation)
One could chalk that up to 40+ years experience of ingesting, singing and playing music. Regardless, 4 years or 40, I really think you need to hear it in your mind's ear before you can properly craft a bass line on the fly. I'm quite convinced this is another reason my original bass teacher (bop jazz master on guitar) made me listen to and learn to sing the melody before he had me walk lines on the bass. Point being, you cannot serve the song as well by simply following those changes - you must know the melody cold before you can intuit a supportive line underneath it.
Once it's in your head, you can play it. Otherwise, it's not so much an exercise in musical expression as it is an exercise in guessing the next note via a flash music theory test in front of a live audience. ( I'm not fond of this practice, but they like to show off how they can play almost anything you throw at them....)
"Playing what you hear"- yes, that's it!
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
Agreed. But, I think a hybrid approach is the most pragmatic. I.e. knowing what/where 'I VI V I' is on a universal/theoretical level, even if you don't catch ALL of it when the guitarist runs it down before the downbeat hits - or knowing what changes/progressions are typical to a given genre - allows kind of a co-approach to getting the 'vocabulary' down. At some point, regardless of the key, your ear recognizes the progression at hand.... and that's super helpful when the guitarist tells you one thing but plays another.... or capos in the wrong spot and doesn't tell you or anyone else. That's where the chord number system/discipline (and decades of experience) comes in really handy, especially if you absolutely do not know anything about the song coming up that's being sprung on you at the last minute. That said, if someone has a super complex song with multiple key changes, they'd better be ready with a chart of some kind. Expecting to ear everything out when it's complex is the bane of every bassist with a bandleader who says 'you'll hear it.....'
Knowing the melody is absolutely essential, even if you don't play it.
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Learning to write numbers charts was one of the best things I ever did. I totally think in numbers now, and I can hear and identify intervals to the extent that I often write out charts without a bass in hand. I think for a bassist it's incredibly powerful to get used to this approach and mindset. I play with a lot of singers and writers who change keys willy nilly, and man, it's indispensable in that setting. Another bonus was when I switched back to favoring five stringers recently it seemed to make that much easier as well.
If there are three of us, we could start a club...
I also played the bassoon for a while in high school. Just because.
THIS.
The ability to write out a numbers chart without a bass or other instrument in hand is also super helpful when my BL/guitarist/singer calls an audible on stage that's a lesser-known song from his distant past. My rule for this kind of thing has always been for the guitar player to keep his fretting hand in view, though I really don't need that. I "hear" the numbers, and can tell when he's shifting to a chorus or bridge by watching for fretting hand movement from any viewpoint, front or back.
Nashville numbering system - There are just so many reasons it's become widely adopted.
Well, we all start with some harmonic structures built around the root note(s), and the basic patterns which work well for bass ... plus scales and walking-bass lines. Those are all potential notes.
Then there's the strategies: what energy suits the moment, the piece, the band (busy vs spare, thick vs thin, show-offy vs minimal-solid etc)
Being confident of all that, I find I can generally follow jazz guitarist Herb Ellis' instruction: sing your lines, and play along with your singing. And then I generally get to where I hardly have to think about it at all.
Lastly, or perhaps just lately, I've been prioritizing how my playing melds with (or interacts with) the kick drum .. sorta thinking of bass like a tuned drum.
Oh - I almost forgot: best of all is if I can make the drummer laugh, while still staying true to the song/music/performance. This is mostly to do with timing and interaction. Basically, you can be solid (good), or even inventive (better) -- but can you be witty? Like throwing in a riff from a song the drummer loves but the band won't play, and making it fit into one of the songs the band plays every show? Other options include dropping some highly-repeated note unexpectedly (but making it sound logical), echoing or harmonizing some prominent detail (drum fill, vocal line), or - best of all - not playing at all, then playing just one note or riff for max impact = playing with density and light. Which IMO is the essence of good bass-playing, and why a techno-programmed bassline can never be as good as a live person.
Then there's the strategies: what energy suits the moment, the piece, the band (busy vs spare, thick vs thin, show-offy vs minimal-solid etc)
Being confident of all that, I find I can generally follow jazz guitarist Herb Ellis' instruction: sing your lines, and play along with your singing. And then I generally get to where I hardly have to think about it at all.
Lastly, or perhaps just lately, I've been prioritizing how my playing melds with (or interacts with) the kick drum .. sorta thinking of bass like a tuned drum.
Oh - I almost forgot: best of all is if I can make the drummer laugh, while still staying true to the song/music/performance. This is mostly to do with timing and interaction. Basically, you can be solid (good), or even inventive (better) -- but can you be witty? Like throwing in a riff from a song the drummer loves but the band won't play, and making it fit into one of the songs the band plays every show? Other options include dropping some highly-repeated note unexpectedly (but making it sound logical), echoing or harmonizing some prominent detail (drum fill, vocal line), or - best of all - not playing at all, then playing just one note or riff for max impact = playing with density and light. Which IMO is the essence of good bass-playing, and why a techno-programmed bassline can never be as good as a live person.
Yeah man, I play with one BL guitarist who's always changing how long some parts go, how many repeats at the end of the song, you-name-it. I gotta always keep an eye on him!
Sounds like my main band BL. He's done too many solo gigs in his life. Good thing I have just the right amount of attention deficit to make it work for me.
