Double Bass NSD WAV 4 - a good alternative to a real DB?

[endorka]

he gets you to use his DB? I wonder why....

Because I told him that one day there was a possibility I would obtain a real DB, and it is his opinion that periodic exposure to the real thing will give me an idea of what to expect in terms of similarities and differences, and make the eventual transition easier. I agree with this.

I have an EUB because I earn my living from playing music, and the EUB is a far more cost effective instrument in terms of cost, setup, maintaince, and transport. Particularly transport. I live in the centre of a fairly large city, and don't own a car... car ownership in the UK is extremely expensive, particularly if you live in a city. However, I can get to most of my local bread & butter jazz gigs either on foot, on bus or on the subway. With an EUB and amplifier this is managable, with a double bass and amp probably not, I'd have to hire a taxi each way which would take a fair chunk out of the gig money. Ouch.

Anyway, back to the topic. I think there is a HUGE amount in common with EUB and DB, certainly in terms of technique. Take bowing for example, you can learn all the really tricky stuff on the EUB and transfer it to DB no problem. In fact I find bowing on the DB easier than the EUB because the DB responds better, presumably due to the acoustic resonance making the string quicker to respond. Or something.

Then there is the left hand fingering stuff, Simandl, Rabbath, whatever, you can learn it all on the EUB. The right hand stuff, you can do jazz pizzicato, classicial pizzicato. You can build up all the physical stamina required to play the instrument, DB or EUB. You can even do thumb position if you like. Sure, there are neck differences between EUBs and DBs, but there are also neck differences between DBs and DBs.

In fact, I would say that for me, there are two minor obstacles for going from something like a WAV to a real DB; one is holding the instrument, but I get used to that after 1/2 an hour or so. Two is my dependance on the dot markers on the neck of the EUB, which is greater than I would like it to be. But give me a fortnight of woodshedding on a real DB, and I reckon I'd get over it.

Jennifer

 

[shwashwa]

Do you really think so? My bass tutor gets me to use his real DB rather than my WAV whenever he gives me a lesson. I don't find it too hard to adjust. Sure there, are some aspects that are different, but it seems to me that the vast majority of technique is very similar.

Jennifer

no, no, no. the vast majority of technique is very very different. the only thing that is similar is that they're both called bass. dont make the mistake of trying to transfer electric technique to upright. you'll set yourself back years and rick injury to yourself. (hands, wrists etc.)

 

[damonsmith]

no, no, no. the vast majority of technique is very very different. the only thing that is similar is that they're both called bass. dont make the mistake of trying to transfer electric technique to upright. you'll set yourself back years and rick injury to yourself. (hands, wrists etc.)

She is talking about electric upright, which is the same, not Bass Guitar.

 

[shwashwa]

She is talking about electric upright, which is the same, not Bass Guitar.

my bad. although i still wouldn't call them the same. i have 3 uprights and a messenger bass, argueably one of the more "upright like" (with the traditional bridge, neck heel and simulated shoulder) of the eub's and there is still a significant difference...

 

[MacDaddyBass]

"Sure, there are neck differences between EUBs and DBs, but there are also neck differences between DBs and DBs."

I agreed with most you said, but this doesn't make sense. Show me a DB without a heel, I'd like to see that. Thumb position isn't the same because you can't memorize where it is by where your arm hits the upper bout, because there is no bout (that's why it's harder without the dots, otherwise it wouldn't be). Hard to learn thumb position on a EUB (atleast on my NS). But, an EUB is good for a lot of things, which you very concisely pointed out.

 

[endorka]

although i still wouldn't call them the same. i have 3 uprights and a messenger bass, argueably one of the more "upright like" (with the traditional bridge, neck heel and simulated shoulder) of the eub's and there is still a significant difference...

Could you expand on this a bit?

Jennifer

 

[endorka]

"Sure, there are neck differences between EUBs and DBs, but there are also neck differences between DBs and DBs."

I agreed with most you said, but this doesn't make sense. Show me a DB without a heel, I'd like to see that.

I am told that the position of the heel varies from DB to DB - I believe on some it implies Eb, on others D. I was also thinking of an earlier poster who referred to neck thickness, which varies between DB to DB, and also scale length.

Thumb position isn't the same because you can't memorize where it is by where your arm hits the upper bout, because there is no bout (that's why it's harder without the dots, otherwise it wouldn't be). Hard to learn thumb position on a EUB (atleast on my NS).

I agree, the thumb position stuff is a bit of a kludge, and can't really be the same. Some of the NS EUBs have a button on the back of the neck to give a tactile indication of when it is time to start moving into thumb position, but again I agree it is not the same. I do think that once you are in position, however you got there, it is possible to reproduce the mechanics of thumb position playing.

Thinking about it, to my mind the thumb position stuff is probably the greatest difference between stick type EUB and DB.

Jennifer

 

[MacDaddyBass]

Agreed.
I think the hardest thing about thumb position though is reference points. How you lean into the bass (aka bouts), where your arm hits, where your arm moves to as you move up the neck, etc. It would be really hard to make an electric that would give you all these reference points.
As far as necks go that's all true, but don't you think there's a significant difference between a shorter/fatter/bigger neck with a heel than one that doesn't even have one? To me that's huge, and the hardest thing to get over when I play my NS (I've played DB for 13 years before buying the NS, lots of habits!).

 

[endorka]

Agreed.
I think the hardest thing about thumb position though is reference points. How you lean into the bass (aka bouts), where your arm hits, where your arm moves to as you move up the neck, etc. It would be really hard to make an electric that would give you all these reference points.

Indeed. In fact, when I think about it, initially I had difficulty even figuring out a good hand orientation for doing the thumb position on the NS. Working out how to do thumb position on a real DB then applying this to the NS helped. Using the endpin stand rather than the tripod also helped.

As far as necks go that's all true, but don't you think there's a significant difference between a shorter/fatter/bigger neck with a heel than one that doesn't even have one? To me that's huge, and the hardest thing to get over when I play my NS (I've played DB for 13 years before buying the NS, lots of habits!).

Yes. Shorter/fatter/bigger neck to me implies some degree of adjustment, probably minor and fairly superficial to adjust to, unless the differences are huge, i.e. too big for hand size or somesuch. Going from neck without heel to one with, or vice versa, in terms of thumb position, will require more major tecnique adjustments. Ironically, most DB players I have encountered say the NS is harder to play because it doesn't have the heel as a reference.

Jennifer

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I have an NS CR5 and a real Double Bass and the necks couldn't be more different in feel!

What often trips me up is that I practice on DB and love really pulling through the strings and getting under them - but however I set up the NS EUB you just can't get that same feel.

As others have said - it can be a problem on NS basses that you have to look at the dots - so on occcasions I have been given parts to play and it was a real struggle looking between the two!

I think they are completely different instruments and you have to treat them as such - horses for courses?

So - the EUB is great for silent practice, cases where you have little space or where you can't park a car - just slip it over my shoulder an walk! It is also better at high volumes - say in a big band or a Latin group with loud percussion...?

But for small band Jazz - you can't beat a real DB and nothing else comes close!!

 

[endorka]

What often trips me up is that I practice on DB and love really pulling through the strings and getting under them - but however I set up the NS EUB you just can't get that same feel.

As others have said - it can be a problem on NS basses that you have to look at the dots - so on occcasions I have been given parts to play and it was a real struggle looking between the two!

I think they are completely different instruments and you have to treat them as such - horses for courses?

I agree with your observations to some extent, but not your conclusions, if that makes sense; I would say a similar thing about many of the "EUB is completely different to DB" posts here. When someone says "completely different instrument", it makes me think, for example, of trumpet versus piano, or guitar versus piccolo, or similar. Clearly this is not the case - at least one of the differences you mention is qualitative, i.e. the instruments have a different "feel". To make such a comparison implies a large degree of commonality.

I do know what you mean about the setup of the neck though, and I have some thoughts on this, but it may be better on another thread.

So - the EUB is great for silent practice, cases where you have little space or where you can't park a car - just slip it over my shoulder an walk! It is also better at high volumes - say in a big band or a Latin group with loud percussion...?

The impression I am getting is that once you start to amplify the DB, the advantages of the acoustic sound of the DB start to get lost; the greater the amplification, the more this applies, until you get to the point you mention with big bands etc. where an EUB may perform better sonically. Many people have stated that the sound of my WAV is similar to a DB amplified through a pickup or mic, so that would make sense.

Jennifer

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

a neck is a neck. If its the same length and width with the same length strings I don't see how it could feel that much different.

I was really responding to this comment above...

So - I am reminded very time I switch between DB and NSCR5 - as it really trips me up !!

I do have a car, but there are gigs where I just can't park - or where I need to give the pianist a lift... with piano!!

On these occasions then, the EUB is very useful, but if I have a choice I love playing DB and will do what I can to drag it around!

If I look at my DB and NS CR5 side by side - there is a huge difference between the two necks!!

So the DB neck is wider and thicker,with much more of a curve and the first octave is much further away than on the EUB! So it's a real stretch to play above the 1st octave on DB - but it's really easy on the EUB!

The DB neck gets much wider as you go towards the bridge compared with the the more consistent NS neck width.

Also - the DB strings get much higher off the fingerboard as you go further towards the bridge - whereas the EUB maintains a fairly consistent height above the board.

In fact - just about everything feels different - in every way I can think of!!

 

[damonsmith]

Thumb position isn't the same because you can't memorize where it is by where your arm hits the upper bout, because there is no bout (that's why it's harder without the dots, otherwise it wouldn't be). Hard to learn thumb position on a EUB (atleast on my NS). But, an EUB is good for a lot of things, which you very concisely pointed out.

-Your arm shouldn't touch the upper bout anyway, most EUBs have some sort of heal. Obviously they have differences but for practical purposes the technique is the same.
I use and teach the same priciples for both instruments.
It is like talking about the difference between acoustic BGs and electric BG - there some but fundamentally they are the same.

 

[butchonbass]

I used to play mostly electric bass. Now I mostly play my Ergo EUB. It is what it is, it's not a substitute for a real upright. I want a real upright. But at the gigs I play, there is often not enough room on stage for an upright and I wouldn't want to have to get another vehicle in order to carry an upright, amps, and PA (which I carry now).
I will get an upright sooner or later. I will most likely play it mostly at home.
I have been recording my band lately and it's all posted on my bands website: Invalid Link Removed My Avatar 410 cabinet is close mic'ed on one of the 10's with a SM57. The amp is a SVT IIP preamp running into a Crown xti2000. The Ergo doesn't sound like an upright to me, but I like it's sound. I really perfer the feel of playing an upright scale length.

 

[damonsmith]

The impression I am getting is that once you start to amplify the DB, the advantages of the acoustic sound of the DB start to get lost; the greater the amplification, the more this applies, until you get to the point you mention with big bands etc. where an EUB may perform better sonically. Many people have stated that the sound of my WAV is similar to a DB amplified through a pickup or mic, so that would make sense.

Jennifer

-Exactly. Only in rare cases will I amplify my double bass anymore. I bring the EUB if amps are required.

 

[shiftdestroy]

-Exactly. Only in rare cases will I amplify my double bass anymore. I bring the EUB if amps are required.

This is the main reason why I have just purchased an EUB (Wav4). I need to cut through some pretty extreme competition (mostly electronic sounds as well as real instrumentation). Plus there are big factors of portability, noise for neighbours etc. And for the price a Wav4 is extremely good (especially as a student)! So if you're not a pure Jazz head like me (and are mixing with unorthodox musical styles), and also want to do some more unusual things with the sound (I can run it through my laptop and get some pretty weird things if I want to), then an EUB is ideal. An EUB might also be ideal for pure Jazz heads for my initial reasons though.

 

[wxfloyd]

While I partly agree with you that the Ergo doesn't sound like a real DB, to me it can get fairly close. After seeing what you use for your rig, one issue might be a mismatched impedance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the Ampegs accommodate extremely high impedance pickups like Piezos. You need an input impedance of at least 1 MOhm. Perhaps you should look into a small preamp that can properly match up the impedance for you. A decent little one is the K&K Pure preamp. Or if you are handy with the soldering gun, you can build one in a small case (altoids can for example). Check out the Ergo megathread. I run my Ergo directly into my EA IAmp 800 and can get a fairly good sound from it.

I used to play mostly electric bass. Now I mostly play my Ergo EUB. It is what it is, it's not a substitute for a real upright. I want a real upright. But at the gigs I play, there is often not enough room on stage for an upright and I wouldn't want to have to get another vehicle in order to carry an upright, amps, and PA (which I carry now).
I will get an upright sooner or later. I will most likely play it mostly at home.
I have been recording my band lately and it's all posted on my bands website: Invalid Link Removed My Avatar 410 cabinet is close mic'ed on one of the 10's with a SM57. The amp is a SVT IIP preamp running into a Crown xti2000. The Ergo doesn't sound like an upright to me, but I like it's sound. I really perfer the feel of playing an upright scale length.

 

[butchonbass]

I have a piezo buffer that I have used. Makes very little difference with the SVT IIP. It does work well with my old fliptop Ampeg. Details here: Link Removed

 

[wxfloyd]

That would be the altoid tin preamp I was talking about. Have you changed the stock strings that came on the Ergo? That made a very big difference for me.

I have a piezo buffer that I have used. Makes very little difference with the SVT IIP. It does work well with my old fliptop Ampeg. Details here: Link Removed

 

[butchonbass]

Yes, I have Corelli's on it now. Sounds great, but back to the original question... substitute for a double bass? I don't think so. Very cool instrument with it's own vibe? Yes it is.