Official Tobias Club

[red_rhino]

That's why I can't understand this endless discussion about pre-Gibson (the good) and Gibson (the bad) Tobias. Probably there were some not the very best examples provided by Gibson, like it is with Les Pauls. But none of these are really bad. All are very good and some of these are exceptional. And so, I believe, are the pre-Gibson era Tobias too. I have no idea, what my example miss, what pre-Gibsons are called to have but a collector reason.
Just my point of view.

I can say that I suspect they will be amazing instruments because my Czech MTD and Nashville and Arkansas Tobias are fantastic

A good design, is a good design. Mike's designs are excellent. Some of the early Gibson builds did have issues. I played a few I didn't think were as well built as they should have been for a bass at that price, but I also played some that were great. I think you can attribute some of that to scaling from a boutique build operation to the larger factory style manufacturing that companies like Gibson understand better.

Unfortunately, by the time they had worked through those issues, the damage to reputation was done and confirmed everyone's fears that Gibson would make a mess of things.

I think you can point to quite a few differences between the pre-Gibson and Gibson-built Tobias', for better and for worse, but ultimately I think they're both great.

 

[Bassistcool]

I can't make an informed comparison because I have never played an USA MTD or pre Gibson Tobias

I can say that I suspect they will be amazing instruments because my Czech MTD and Nashville and Arkansas Tobias are fantastic

me neither, but I can compare with Alembic, Status, Warwick and some more and therefore I'm shure you are right, these Tobias aside pre-Gibson are fantastic too.

 

[kesslari]

Jumping into the dogpile... There were some excellent Gibson Tobiases, and some duds that were perhaps just "duds by comparison", whereas pretty much every bass that came out of Mike's shop was fantastic. They simply did not let a dud out the door.

 

[evilgus]

I'm lucky enough to have owned 10 different Tobias basses, over the years, including 3 Pre-Gibs, 2 U.S MTD 535-24s, 4 Gibson U.S Tobiases and 1 MTD Kingston. (I still own the 3 Pre-Gibs and 2 U.S Gibsons.) I'm also lucky to have had no terrible "Duds" amongst the bunch, but that doesn't mean they were all perfect and had no issues....

Out of the 4 Gibson-made Tobiases, I'd say 1 of them (a mahogany Killer B-5) was exceptional and had no issues, but the other 3 had something that needed work or fixing. The brand new lacewood Killer B-5 that I bought as my first ever Tobias bass, had a dodgy Bartolini pre-amp and would drain batteries in a number of days. I had to freight the pre-amp back to Gibson for a full replacement, which took months. (They did give me lots of free Tobias strings, to make up for it, though!) The '95 Classic 5 that I bought used, had curved pickups that didn't match the (nearly flat) radius of the fingerboard, so the B and G strings sounded weak and there was no adjustment that would fix it. I had to replace the pickups with flat Bartolini CB models, to get it to sound decent. The Growler 5 that I bought recently and still own, has about 4 really high frets up towards the nut and needs a fret-level, before I can get the action down to a normal level. (Even the double truss-rod can't flatten that part of the neck out, so I suspect it has been that way since being built. I could be wrong...)

As far as the Pre-Gibson Tobiases go, the build quality, ergonomics and sound has been exceptional, in all 3 cases. My oldest one, a Basic 6 fretless, is near mint condition and all-original. (And sounds glorious!) The Classic and Signature did have to have their pre-amps replaced, as they just started to distort and crackle, simply due to old age. But the necks are all close to perfect and very flat, plus very good to adjust, due to the double truss-rod setup. The sound is typically a lot warmer than the MTD basses, more like the sound of the Gibson Tobiases. (The really early "drop-shoulder" pickups are very fat and warm, like an early Ernie Ball Stingray sound.)

As far as the MTD USA basses go, I've had two (mint-condition) used MTD 535-24s and they have been amazing instruments - stunning to look at, top-notch build and attention to detail, light and comfortable. Very punchy and bright sound and incredibly responsive to different playing styles. (You can hear every single nuance of your playing, which is not always a good thing...LOL) However, one of them did have a serious neck issue that I couldn't get fixed, so I ended up selling it. Apparently, Mike Tobias has been known to say that the combination of an ash neck and ebony fingerboard is not a good one. Well, this first MTD that I bought had that combination and even though it was only a year old, had all sorts of weird high and low spots all over the neck and a considerable buzzing issue. Even after getting a full fret-level, it was still very inconsistent and I couldn't get the action down to where I wanted, so I moved it on. (I tried to convince Mike to give me a discount on a replacement neck, but because it was a used bass and had travelled "Down Under", he didn't want to come to the party.) But dayum, the thing sounded incredible, so I still wish I had kept it, despite that problem!!!

Anyway, hope that was interesting to some of you!

Cheers,

EG

 

[iplay5strings]

I've never laid hands on one, but reportedly the pre-Gibson models have a unique sound. This is likely because when Michael Tobias sold the company, he retained rights to his proprietary Bartolini electronics; they did not "pass" to Gibson. I've seen discussions on TB (possibly early in this thread? I don't recall for sure) that for a time Gibson had some glaring QC issues with their Tobias basses, with people making the claims saying they saw them first hand. That said, I have no issues with my 1999 Classic. I love it.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Official Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

The pre-Gibson stuff indeed did have it's own sound. There are a few versions of why/how the electronics did not pass to Gibson's hands. Without writing a novel, the break between Gibson and Mike was not amicable, he was strong armed into having to sell to them. It's why he still will not be bothered by Tobias owners that did not originally by their Tobiases from him. Right before the hostile takeover, Mike had switched away from the infamous drop-shoulder duals/TCT combo to an early version of the buffered reverse p pickups and either an XTCT-LZ or WTMB preamp. Then Gibson went from their and built their own cluster with that dual mode, "slap tone" NS2TMB and started using stock Bart pickups. The TCT has a sound all its own and the Tobias circuit specifically developed by Bob Lee was tuned/made for those custom duals Bill made for Mike. Many people talking about the "pre-Gibson sound" are referring to that setup, it was very much on par with that 90's (Pedulla, Zon, Modulus, etc) boutique bass tone and is very different from what Mike is doing now with MTD.

 

[red_rhino]

The TCT has a sound all its own and the Tobias circuit specifically developed by Bob Lee was tuned/made for those custom duals Bill made for Mike.

My Classic 4 has that package. While I never considered it the best setup for rock music, it absolutely kills in the studio. They've held up well compared to some anecdotes I've heard, but it does seem that the character of the circuit has changed over time. Not sure if that's real or imagined, since it's subtle. I've occasionally toyed with updating it, but then I worry about potential collectible value (who am I kidding? I'm never gonna sell it.), and finding someone I can trust to do the work. And I'm not even sure what pickups or pre I'd want to drop into it. An East preamp? Pope? Something that doesn't involve drilling or routing, that's for sure.

It plays like a dream and the neck has been stable for 30+ years, only adjusted once when I moved to lighter gauge strings. In all likelihood I'll probably just leave it as is.

 

[groove pump]

I'm lucky enough to have owned 10 different Tobias basses, over the years, including 3 Pre-Gibs, 2 U.S MTD 535-24s, 4 Gibson U.S Tobiases and 1 MTD Kingston. (I still own the 3 Pre-Gibs and 2 U.S Gibsons.) I'm also lucky to have had no terrible "Duds" amongst the bunch, but that doesn't mean they were all perfect and had no issues....

Out of the 4 Gibson-made Tobiases, I'd say 1 of them (a mahogany Killer B-5) was exceptional and had no issues, but the other 3 had something that needed work or fixing. The brand new lacewood Killer B-5 that I bought as my first ever Tobias bass, had a dodgy Bartolini pre-amp and would drain batteries in a number of days. I had to freight the pre-amp back to Gibson for a full replacement, which took months. (They did give me lots of free Tobias strings, to make up for it, though!) The '95 Classic 5 that I bought used, had curved pickups that didn't match the (nearly flat) radius of the fingerboard, so the B and G strings sounded weak and there was no adjustment that would fix it. I had to replace the pickups with flat Bartolini CB models, to get it to sound decent. The Growler 5 that I bought recently and still own, has about 4 really high frets up towards the nut and needs a fret-level, before I can get the action down to a normal level. (Even the double truss-rod can't flatten that part of the neck out, so I suspect it has been that way since being built. I could be wrong...)

As far as the Pre-Gibson Tobiases go, the build quality, ergonomics and sound has been exceptional, in all 3 cases. My oldest one, a Basic 6 fretless, is near mint condition and all-original. (And sounds glorious!) The Classic and Signature did have to have their pre-amps replaced, as they just started to distort and crackle, simply due to old age. But the necks are all close to perfect and very flat, plus very good to adjust, due to the double truss-rod setup. The sound is typically a lot warmer than the MTD basses, more like the sound of the Gibson Tobiases. (The really early "drop-shoulder" pickups are very fat and warm, like an early Ernie Ball Stingray sound.)

As far as the MTD USA basses go, I've had two (mint-condition) used MTD 535-24s and they have been amazing instruments - stunning to look at, top-notch build and attention to detail, light and comfortable. Very punchy and bright sound and incredibly responsive to different playing styles. (You can hear every single nuance of your playing, which is not always a good thing...LOL) However, one of them did have a serious neck issue that I couldn't get fixed, so I ended up selling it. Apparently, Mike Tobias has been known to say that the combination of an ash neck and ebony fingerboard is not a good one. Well, this first MTD that I bought had that combination and even though it was only a year old, had all sorts of weird high and low spots all over the neck and a considerable buzzing issue. Even after getting a full fret-level, it was still very inconsistent and I couldn't get the action down to where I wanted, so I moved it on. (I tried to convince Mike to give me a discount on a replacement neck, but because it was a used bass and had travelled "Down Under", he didn't want to come to the party.) But dayum, the thing sounded incredible, so I still wish I had kept it, despite that problem!!!

Anyway, hope that was interesting to some of you!

Cheers,

EG

Interesting yes!!

I picked up a Gibson-era Killer B 4-string that seems to be quite a decent build, but I keep getting the feeling that the electronics aren't exactly... ideal. It has those curved Bartolinis that make me wonder whether I'm getting the right balance from string to string with the action set where I like it.

Also getting the occasional itch to swap out the preamp (also Bartolini), perhaps for an Aguilar OBP-3 I have on hand that didn't help with another bass I recently tried out (the OBP-3 was nice, but the bass was fundamentally rather weak). The preamp in this bass seems to have odd frequency centers, but it's hard to know just how much of all that is rooted in the personality of the instrument itself.

Maybe I'll take on the adventure of either a pickup or preamp swap. If I try any of that, I'll hopefully report back. But I might just go for a different instrument if something irresistible emerges.

 

[groove pump]

The pre-Gibson stuff indeed did have it's own sound. There are a few versions of why/how the electronics did not pass to Gibson's hands. Without writing a novel, the break between Gibson and Mike was not amicable, he was strong armed into having to sell to them. It's why he still will not be bothered by Tobias owners that did not originally by their Tobiases from him. Right before the hostile takeover, Mike had switched away from the infamous drop-shoulder duals/TCT combo to an early version of the buffered reverse p pickups and either an XTCT-LZ or WTMB preamp. Then Gibson went from their and built their own cluster with that dual mode, "slap tone" NS2TMB and started using stock Bart pickups. The TCT has a sound all its own and the Tobias circuit specifically developed by Bob Lee was tuned/made for those custom duals Bill made for Mike. Many people talking about the "pre-Gibson sound" are referring to that setup, it was very much on par with that 90's (Pedulla, Zon, Modulus, etc) boutique bass tone and is very different from what Mike is doing now with MTD.

And there's another piece of the puzzle. Thanks for the backstory!! I can say that the electronics in my Killer B just don't seem to be tailored to the personality of the instrument. Mine has an ash body with the maple/pupleheart neck and I believe a wenge fretboard.

Boosting the highs at all with that preamp turns the sound much too clanky and harsh for my taste (nickel roundwounds), the sound with the slap switch engaged is borderline useless for me (I may try to tweak it), and the mid control seems to be much too broad regardless of where I have the 3-position switch. If I try to trim the mids at all, the character of my tone seems to quickly fall off a cliff.

Some past experiments with electronics have been fun, but some have been a big waste of time, effort, $$$, etc. It would be nice to get this bass to really sing - so far it's been a mixed bag. Maybe I'll use it for a little bit at a gig this weekend to help with making one decision or another.

 

[iplay5strings]

My Classic 4 has that package. While I never considered it the best setup for rock music, it absolutely kills in the studio. They've held up well compared to some anecdotes I've heard, but it does seem that the character of the circuit has changed over time. Not sure if that's real or imagined, since it's subtle. I've occasionally toyed with updating it, but then I worry about potential collectible value (who am I kidding? I'm never gonna sell it.), and finding someone I can trust to do the work. And I'm not even sure what pickups or pre I'd want to drop into it. An East preamp? Pope? Something that doesn't involve drilling or routing, that's for sure.

It plays like a dream and the neck has been stable for 30+ years, only adjusted once when I moved to lighter gauge strings. In all likelihood I'll probably just leave it as is.

You could always refresh it with a new TCT unit...

 

[red_rhino]

You could always refresh it with a new TCT unit...

Is that even possible? I thought that particular circuit was spec'd out for Tobias (or was some variation of the TCT that wasn't exactly off-the-shelf).

 

[iplay5strings]

Is that even possible? I thought that particular circuit was spec'd out for Tobias (or was some variation of the TCT that wasn't exactly off-the-shelf).

It's nowhere near as specialized as the MTD stuff, just a certain way of wiring it all up.

 

[evilgus]

Is that even possible? I thought that particular circuit was spec'd out for Tobias (or was some variation of the TCT that wasn't exactly off-the-shelf).

I've compared an original Mike-fitted TCT preamp to a new one off ebay and it sounded virtually identical. There's also a few online bass shops doing pre-wired TCT preamps, but they aren't cheap and often out of stock. I can also highly recommend the Pope Flexcores in a Tobias, especially the 4-band, but they have been discontinued, so hard to find. I actually own two and will not be parting with them!

EG

 

[evilgus]

Interesting yes!!

I picked up a Gibson-era Killer B 4-string that seems to be quite a decent build, but I keep getting the feeling that the electronics aren't exactly... ideal. It has those curved Bartolinis that make me wonder whether I'm getting the right balance from string to string with the action set where I like it.

Also getting the occasional itch to swap out the preamp (also Bartolini), perhaps for an Aguilar OBP-3 I have on hand that didn't help with another bass I recently tried out (the OBP-3 was nice, but the bass was fundamentally rather weak). The preamp in this bass seems to have odd frequency centers, but it's hard to know just how much of all that is rooted in the personality of the instrument itself.

Maybe I'll take on the adventure of either a pickup or preamp swap. If I try any of that, I'll hopefully report back. But I might just go for a different instrument if something irresistible emerges.

That's also interesting! I've got a circa 2005 mahogany KB5 and the preamp seems to suit it perfectly, but I think it's the later, more standard, Bart circuit without the slap switch. My original KB5 from '98 had the slap-switch preamp and I don't think I liked it quite as much.

 

[red_rhino]

I've compared an original Mike-fitted TCT preamp to a new one off ebay and it sounded virtually identical. There's also a few online bass shops doing pre-wired TCT preamps, but they aren't cheap and often out of stock. I can also highly recommend the Pope Flexcores in a Tobias, especially the 4-band, but they have been discontinued, so hard to find. I actually own two and will not be parting with them!

Oh great. So you're telling me there's an awesome alternative, you have two, and I can't have one? That's so mean!

Seriously though, I think a 4-band is more than I want to deal with. The East preamp might be a good fit; something with sweepable mids.

Has anyone replaced the pickups on their pre-Gibson Tobias?

 

[tombowlus]

I've compared an original Mike-fitted TCT preamp to a new one off ebay and it sounded virtually identical. There's also a few online bass shops doing pre-wired TCT preamps, but they aren't cheap and often out of stock. I can also highly recommend the Pope Flexcores in a Tobias, especially the 4-band, but they have been discontinued, so hard to find. I actually own two and will not be parting with them!

EG

I have a FlexCore 4-band in one of my Basic 4's, and it does in fact, sound excellent!

 

[tombowlus]

Oh great. So you're telling me there's an awesome alternative, you have two, and I can't have one? That's so mean!

Seriously though, I think a 4-band is more than I want to deal with. The East preamp might be a good fit; something with sweepable mids.

Has anyone replaced the pickups on their pre-Gibson Tobias?

Big fan of John East pre's, as well, though I have not tried one in any of my Tobiases.

 

[Bassistcool]

Big fan of John East pre's, as well, though I have not tried one in any of my Tobiases.

I have installed a John East J-Retro01 on a Jazz Bass. It blows the speaker out the box. That preamp provides active and passive settings and sounds just great. The tonal possibilities are outstanding and far above almost everything else I heard so far. Very nice is, that no modifacations of any kind are required to the instrument. But it is also at a high price level.
No idea, if there are John East preamps available, which fit in Tobiases.

 

[tombowlus]

I have installed a John East J-Retro01 on a Jazz Bass. It blows the speaker out the box. That preamp provides active and passive settings and sounds just great. The tonal possibilities are outstanding and far above almost everything else I heard so far. Very nice is, that no modifacations of any kind are required to the instrument. But it is also at a high price level.
No idea, if there are John East preamps available, which fit in Tobiases.

I've used John East preamps in many other basses, and I really like every model I have tried. The variable mids are really nice, but even his fixed band preamps sound pristine and wonderful. I am quite certain that you could fit a number of his models in your average Tobias control cavity.

 

[bucephylus]

I am grateful to @tombowlus for bringing the Pope preamp to my attention while it was generally available. I had it fitted in a Hollywood Sig5, which is currently for sale in the TB classified and on Reverb BTW (by the person I sold it to); and I found it to be a massive improvement over the TCT; YMMV.

I also put that preamp along with some Nordstrand Zen Blade prototypes in my Nashville C6; and that bass will have to be pried out of my cold dead hands. Refitted by Pat Wilkins, the bass is simply magnificent.

Then, I also commissioned Mike to build a 534 to my specs, using the Pope preamp and Nordy Zens. That took a bit more elbow grease; because Mike, being such a nice guy, was only too happy to work with Mike Pope, but failed to understand that the Nordstrand pickups required cavity shielding. Mike is just a bit spoiled by the Bartolini pickup construction, which is already shielded. Anyhow, Mike sadly never heard how great that bass actually sounds.

On a separate note, I also put the Pope circuit into my Zon Sonus Special 5F. That bass is another permanent fixture. But, for that one, I actually tried an East U-retro first; and I couldn't get with that circuit at all. The voicing just didn't match the Sonus in the least. Haven't looked back since installing the Pope.

All that said, I generally gig 4 and 5 string Jazz Basses fitted with Delano JMVC pickups and the Sadowsky preamp these days. Those basses just fit my gigs better. I've even given some thought to letting the 534 go, simply because it is probably never going to get much gig time. Time will tell.

FWIW

 

[evilgus]

An update on the Growler 5...

I took a few basses to my luthier, yesterday, to get some repairs done and also for him to check the neck action issue I have with the Growler 5. He looked at the grain pattern of the wenge fingerboard and immediately said it was cut all wrong - it should have been quarter-cut or perhaps cross-cut, but was cut at a weird angle and has 3 distinct areas with a different level of stiffness. So when you tweak the truss-rods, each section will curve differently, rather than a single consistent curve, the length of the neck. So yes, he was not very impressed. As a likely fix, he is going to remove the neck and try some heat-treating and gradual re-adjustment, to "reset" the way it is curving. May not end up being 100% perfect, but should help quite a lot.

* Edited to remove blatant Gibson-bashing comment, when it could have just been one person making a poor choice on one particular day... *

Cheers,

EG