Joe is a good man. Seems we're missing a piece somewhere... It's not like running a business in his neck of the woods makes it particularly easy for a small shop.
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From your invoice you posted you went directly thru Zon and not a dealer, from the time frame from 2016 til now you haven't been able to get any info on your build?
Even a year later from the time you ordered your bass which would have been August of 2017 you have never been able to talk to anybody at Zon to see what is going on regarding your bass?
Honestly this isn't making any sense!!!!
I wonder if this has something to do with it:
“Joe is also overseeing a retooling of the production process for Zon’s composite necks that will increase efficiency while maintaining their unique sonic characteristics and stability.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bassplayer.com/.amp/gear/the-innovators-zon-guitars-joe-zon
“Joe is also overseeing a retooling of the production process for Zon’s composite necks that will increase efficiency while maintaining their unique sonic characteristics and stability.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bassplayer.com/.amp/gear/the-innovators-zon-guitars-joe-zon
Every time I have spoken to Joe I have been told it will take 2 months then nothing. It has been like this for 2 years. Last time I called and reached him I was hung up on and when I called right back voicemail. I have been civil and polite. At this point I have realized it is out of my hands and whatever happens....
Received a Sonus 4 in 2014. Was quoted 8 months et it took 18 months.
Mrgittleman, your order have been quoted for a 18 months wait, a lot longer than the average 8 month usually quoted (from what I saw on this forum). And from what I read here, everybody received their bass, even if the wait was very long, so I would not be worried about never receiving a bass. However, I can totally understand your frustration and worried with this lack of communication, especially at this premium price.
When I ordered I knew that communication was not their strength (not on the same level of the quality of their bass) and I remember reading here this good advice : you don't know when you'll receive your bass but when you'll receive it, you will have a fantastic instrument. My personal experience is that Joe and Martin have been really nice and helpful, even if not always fast or proactive on emails and updates.
They answered my emails this fall, gave me their new address, and I even received a link on my email for the Holiday Rumblings Vol II (very cool idea!). So I think the shop is still working fine.
Sincerely hope everything will turn ok for everyone !
Mrgittleman, your order have been quoted for a 18 months wait, a lot longer than the average 8 month usually quoted (from what I saw on this forum). And from what I read here, everybody received their bass, even if the wait was very long, so I would not be worried about never receiving a bass. However, I can totally understand your frustration and worried with this lack of communication, especially at this premium price.
When I ordered I knew that communication was not their strength (not on the same level of the quality of their bass) and I remember reading here this good advice : you don't know when you'll receive your bass but when you'll receive it, you will have a fantastic instrument. My personal experience is that Joe and Martin have been really nice and helpful, even if not always fast or proactive on emails and updates.
They answered my emails this fall, gave me their new address, and I even received a link on my email for the Holiday Rumblings Vol II (very cool idea!). So I think the shop is still working fine.
Sincerely hope everything will turn ok for everyone !
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I've been asked to post about my experience.
I'll start by giving Joe the benefit of the doubt on being a fraud. I did receive both my instruments. Thus, even if Joe stretched the truth at certain points along the way to somehow balance cashflow or whatever, as I strongly believe he did, he's a different animal than Pratt or Darrin Huff etc...At a certain point, however, I think a client reasonably begins to get a very similar taste in his mouth from dealing with relentless prevarication as he does from dealing with relentless customer relations incompetence.
I ordered 2 basses from Zon on 5/2/2014. The estimated shipping date on my invoice was 12/30/2014. The order total was approximately 10k USD. I ordered a headless bass that they made for Todd Johnson, with some relatively minor personal adjustments (string spacing at bridge was 18mm, not 16.5) and a pretty run of the mill- at least as far as these instruments go- vb4 (no exotic body woods or bizarre scale or electronics.)
My basses were delivered at about the 3 year mark. I was quoted 8 months.
After the 8 month mark, I began calling with regularity (maybe once a month on average) to see what was going on with my builds. Often times there would be no answer, sometimes there would be. On every single call, I'd get a new lead time estimate. Each time, save for when the instruments were finally shipped to me, it was broken. I'd be promised pics. They'd never come. The explanations ranged from having to get ready for Namm to the infamous and frankly fishy as hell Bartolini stories that I see on this thread with frequency (they haven't shipped us pickups, the pickups are malfunctioning, they shipped pickups with the wrong spacing, they shipped us a pizza instead of pickups...okay the last one never happened).
I wonder if anyone has checked up with Bartolini's other clients about this to see if they have the same experience with a company that apparently loves wasting pickup building material.
I eventually received my Vb4 over 2 years past the original lead time.
The TJ 6 was still a work in progress. As time went on, the explanations for the delays got fishier. This culminated in Joe telling me that the TJ bass was complete and ready to ship. Great! I could put this ordeal behind me. I authorized him to charge my CC to close out the invoice. A couple of days later Joe tells me that the nut that Hipshot had carved for the bass had the wrong spacing. Aw man, could you believe that? Not only that, their primary contact at Hipshot was away for a while because of a family emergency. Shucks, what can ya do, right? I was told to to hold tight for another week. Three weeks pass. Nothing.
I called Hipshot and tracked down their point man for Zon. He told me that a.) Hipshot doesn't carve nuts for Zon basses and b.) Joe must have been talking about the headpiece for the bass. I remember this guy saying to me over the phone, "normally I wouldn't speak with one of Joe's clients like this, but since he brought my name into it...Joe sent me a drawing with NO MEASUREMENTS on how he would like this headpiece cut. We cut it and sent it to him and he rejected it. We cut it again and it wasn't what he wanted again. We've already lost money on this."
I promptly called Joe and explained to him that I sent him the balance under the pretense that the last instrument was completed and about to be shipped. I said that if I didn't have the bass in the next week, I'd be filing a chargeback with my credit card. Joe pleaded with me not to do that, that it would cost him a lot of money and cause him other various problems, the details of which I don't remember.
I got my remaining bass about a week after that.
What are my takeaways? I think Joe has business problems of some kind, most likely cash flow, and thus needs to "manage" his clients' lead times creatively. I won't do business with him again until the reputation of the shop changes along these lines. He threw in a fresh pack of strings and strap locks to compensate for the admittedly awful experience he gave me in purchasing his instruments.
I'll close like many griping posts about unreliable but talented luthiers. It really is a shame he manages his shop like this, because his instruments are top notch. I'm in love with my Vb4 and though I have my TJ 6 up for sale, it's an absolutely incredible instrument as well.
I'll start by giving Joe the benefit of the doubt on being a fraud. I did receive both my instruments. Thus, even if Joe stretched the truth at certain points along the way to somehow balance cashflow or whatever, as I strongly believe he did, he's a different animal than Pratt or Darrin Huff etc...At a certain point, however, I think a client reasonably begins to get a very similar taste in his mouth from dealing with relentless prevarication as he does from dealing with relentless customer relations incompetence.
I ordered 2 basses from Zon on 5/2/2014. The estimated shipping date on my invoice was 12/30/2014. The order total was approximately 10k USD. I ordered a headless bass that they made for Todd Johnson, with some relatively minor personal adjustments (string spacing at bridge was 18mm, not 16.5) and a pretty run of the mill- at least as far as these instruments go- vb4 (no exotic body woods or bizarre scale or electronics.)
My basses were delivered at about the 3 year mark. I was quoted 8 months.
After the 8 month mark, I began calling with regularity (maybe once a month on average) to see what was going on with my builds. Often times there would be no answer, sometimes there would be. On every single call, I'd get a new lead time estimate. Each time, save for when the instruments were finally shipped to me, it was broken. I'd be promised pics. They'd never come. The explanations ranged from having to get ready for Namm to the infamous and frankly fishy as hell Bartolini stories that I see on this thread with frequency (they haven't shipped us pickups, the pickups are malfunctioning, they shipped pickups with the wrong spacing, they shipped us a pizza instead of pickups...okay the last one never happened).
I wonder if anyone has checked up with Bartolini's other clients about this to see if they have the same experience with a company that apparently loves wasting pickup building material.
I eventually received my Vb4 over 2 years past the original lead time.
The TJ 6 was still a work in progress. As time went on, the explanations for the delays got fishier. This culminated in Joe telling me that the TJ bass was complete and ready to ship. Great! I could put this ordeal behind me. I authorized him to charge my CC to close out the invoice. A couple of days later Joe tells me that the nut that Hipshot had carved for the bass had the wrong spacing. Aw man, could you believe that? Not only that, their primary contact at Hipshot was away for a while because of a family emergency. Shucks, what can ya do, right? I was told to to hold tight for another week. Three weeks pass. Nothing.
I called Hipshot and tracked down their point man for Zon. He told me that a.) Hipshot doesn't carve nuts for Zon basses and b.) Joe must have been talking about the headpiece for the bass. I remember this guy saying to me over the phone, "normally I wouldn't speak with one of Joe's clients like this, but since he brought my name into it...Joe sent me a drawing with NO MEASUREMENTS on how he would like this headpiece cut. We cut it and sent it to him and he rejected it. We cut it again and it wasn't what he wanted again. We've already lost money on this."
I promptly called Joe and explained to him that I sent him the balance under the pretense that the last instrument was completed and about to be shipped. I said that if I didn't have the bass in the next week, I'd be filing a chargeback with my credit card. Joe pleaded with me not to do that, that it would cost him a lot of money and cause him other various problems, the details of which I don't remember.
I got my remaining bass about a week after that.
What are my takeaways? I think Joe has business problems of some kind, most likely cash flow, and thus needs to "manage" his clients' lead times creatively. I won't do business with him again until the reputation of the shop changes along these lines. He threw in a fresh pack of strings and strap locks to compensate for the admittedly awful experience he gave me in purchasing his instruments.
I'll close like many griping posts about unreliable but talented luthiers. It really is a shame he manages his shop like this, because his instruments are top notch. I'm in love with my Vb4 and though I have my TJ 6 up for sale, it's an absolutely incredible instrument as well.
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Most of us on here know that you can wait anywhere from 8 months to 2 years for a Zon. You said it yourself. Add in the knowledge that they moved their entire shop this year, I'd add another 6-8 months onto the wait.
A lot of us have read about or personally experienced the Zon process.
It might take a while but once you receive it you remember why you didn't order a Spector.
Kidding on the Spector, I have one and love it. But seriously, everyone has the same story or some variation on it. Do you truly believe you never would've received the bass?
I think its unfair to publicly shame them as a fraud and felon because you've been waiting 17 months and haven't received the communication you'd like. I had great conversations with Joe about my bass in August and December of 2018. Others have mentioned speaking to them in 2018 on this forum. They haven't gone silent.
Why the sudden need to involve the police? If you don't mind me asking, how long exactly did you go without communication from them? Did you warn them in your emails or voicemails that you were going to the police? If so, I'm very shocked they never got back to you.
A lot of us have read about or personally experienced the Zon process.
It might take a while but once you receive it you remember why you didn't order a Spector.
Kidding on the Spector, I have one and love it. But seriously, everyone has the same story or some variation on it. Do you truly believe you never would've received the bass?
I think its unfair to publicly shame them as a fraud and felon because you've been waiting 17 months and haven't received the communication you'd like. I had great conversations with Joe about my bass in August and December of 2018. Others have mentioned speaking to them in 2018 on this forum. They haven't gone silent.
Why the sudden need to involve the police? If you don't mind me asking, how long exactly did you go without communication from them? Did you warn them in your emails or voicemails that you were going to the police? If so, I'm very shocked they never got back to you.
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Yep. I've been in touch with them about a replcaement part and they were (after getting past the summer break) responsive. They're there.
Just keep in mind the most vocal people will always be the worst case scenarios.
Two pieces of advice that always seem to eventually percolate to the top here when this stuff comes up... as it has MANY times before over the years...
1.) If you're not an exceptionally patient customer, simply don't order a custom from them:
While Zon actually does have the capability to ship pretty close to schedule, they clearly ALSO have to capacity to be grossly late, and exceptionally poor communicators, exacerbating the latter. If you can't tolerate that potential, simply don't order a custom from them. Still want one bad? See #2 below...
2.) Order off-the-shelf or buy used:
While Zons aren't nearly as prevalent on the used/new market as other premium brands, noting you'd have to be super patient to get a custom anyway, maybe just watch the new/used marketplace and buy already made product.
It all boils down to #1 above. Yeah, I wish it weren't true, but sadly it is, for reasons we will all likely never truly know, so it doesn't matter. Just know that it is and act accordingly within your personal boundaries/tolerance, and live life.
P.S. I know these guys personally, and while they can be miserably poor at customer service, they are absolutely not criminals. May be a subtle difference to the worst case customer, but it's a fact, and at least IMHO, should matter.
Two pieces of advice that always seem to eventually percolate to the top here when this stuff comes up... as it has MANY times before over the years...
1.) If you're not an exceptionally patient customer, simply don't order a custom from them:
While Zon actually does have the capability to ship pretty close to schedule, they clearly ALSO have to capacity to be grossly late, and exceptionally poor communicators, exacerbating the latter. If you can't tolerate that potential, simply don't order a custom from them. Still want one bad? See #2 below...
2.) Order off-the-shelf or buy used:
While Zons aren't nearly as prevalent on the used/new market as other premium brands, noting you'd have to be super patient to get a custom anyway, maybe just watch the new/used marketplace and buy already made product.
It all boils down to #1 above. Yeah, I wish it weren't true, but sadly it is, for reasons we will all likely never truly know, so it doesn't matter. Just know that it is and act accordingly within your personal boundaries/tolerance, and live life.
P.S. I know these guys personally, and while they can be miserably poor at customer service, they are absolutely not criminals. May be a subtle difference to the worst case customer, but it's a fact, and at least IMHO, should matter.
I was asked by Maidenbass to share my experience and for the record never accused them of ripping anyone off. I just wished that prior to ordering I was aware of the reality of ordering from them. The constant excuses and lies make for disgruntled clients.
Well...
This.
I'm not knocking anyone who decides they need to pursue a refund. People should protect themselves as they see fit. The story of their experience will speak for itself. No need to presume the shop's intentions or motivations, because the stories are what they are and are unfortunate enough.
Some surfboard shapers have signs that say something like “every time you call, your board takes a month longer”. My policy on my Zon is it’ll be a wonderful surprise when it’s ready. I bought a BG4 used to tide me over.
It was quite a wait for mine but I never felt like it was in jeopardy. I can understand why people would be uncomfortable with the process though. I've been going through it myself recently with another builder but again, there are reasons why things take a while.
I will say that my Legacy Elite 519 was worth every "extra" month spent.
I will say that my Legacy Elite 519 was worth every "extra" month spent.
Nice! One with the newer distortion circuit? What are your impressions?
- May 20, 2000
- 3,200
- 1,917
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Aguilar Amplification, Spector, Dingwall, Tech 21 NYC, Darkglass
How much would everyone be dissuaded from ordering a Zon if you were told a longer build time?
I have yet to own a Zon instrument, but I have bought custom instruments in the past and I plan a few more this year. If I was told the correct expectations from the beginning and the timeline remains on track with occasional communication, then I am fine.
Following some of the other custom builder clubs, I have noted some other builders have lengthy waits as well, but they advise you upfront. Wal has a 2-year waiting period. Wyn is a 3-year waiting period. The difference is you are advised beforehand.
I think the issue I've been reading in the last few pages of this thread is a major communication issue. It would be best if they advised upfront that 3-years is an expected timeline. If there's not already one on staff, Zon could hire a receptionist to take calls/emails.
I agree wholeheartedly. I don't mind the wait at all, as long as it's an honest approximation. I was told 10 months, but I'm not going to hold my breath. If they told me 20 months, but the bass arrived at or very close to the 20 month mark, I would be much happier than if they told me 10 months and then gave me 10 months of excuses before finally delivering the bass. I'm going through this same thing with another builder too. Promises, some momentum that makes me feel as though we are very close, and then when the date gets blown my responses are avoided for weeks. Then they start responding again and the cycle repeats.
I completely understand that setbacks can occur during the construction process but customers need to be kept informed. I can use one personal example. I had fully paid for an FBass VF6-PJ Fretless by Sept/Oct 2017. It was not completed until the end of May 2018. (This was my second FBass order, with a BN6 being my first which was completed in about 3 months, as I had no customized details.)
Marcel kept me informed along the way. First, he advised upfront they would prioritize their Jan 2018 NAMM instruments before mine. This is understandable. Secondly, my requested instrument was highly customized and required them ordering electronics & hardware they did not normally keep on hand. Specifically, there was a wait for a 6-string bent plate to be manufactured for me. Again, communication is key.
- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,078
- 9,800
- Disclosures
- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
I really feel for Joe. He's not a bad guy. That said, I can fully understand the frustration of being the customer in that situation and I dont blame anyone for taking action after multiple attempts to communicate that were not reciprocated or when lead times were consistently misrepresented. I really hope they can turn the communication piece around, its very unfortunate, given the outstanding quality of the products.
