billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
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Okay.......*** Sweetwater said......
- Thread starter GrinningMouth88
- Start date
100% incorrect. You're not helping the OP with this piffel.
That's why I keep posting the link to your explanation. Maybe someone will read it.
BillFitzmaurice.info - View topic - Can I underpower my speakers?Will clipping hurt them?
Well, definitely ignore what he said in general. A 4ohm 412 would pretty much crush with that head IMO. A 4 0hm 412 versus two 8 0hm 212's will get you pretty much to the same place.
As has been stated, it sounds like the Sweetwater guy doesn't have a clue and shouldn't be around a bass rig. I hope he never operates anything more complicated, like a full-size PA system.
As far as what he said about the combo and 410 combination: It will only hurt the combo if it cannot accept an extension cabinet that has an impedance lower than the combo's acceptable minimum impedance for an extension cab. I've used my 250 watt Carvin MB12 with a 1000 watt Hartke HyDrive 4x10 on a number of gigs before.
As far as what he said about the combo and 410 combination: It will only hurt the combo if it cannot accept an extension cabinet that has an impedance lower than the combo's acceptable minimum impedance for an extension cab. I've used my 250 watt Carvin MB12 with a 1000 watt Hartke HyDrive 4x10 on a number of gigs before.
THANK you haha. I'm not an indecisive person by nature, but I've been waiting for someone to just say that so I can start playing and be on my merry way. I'm going to be running through a sansamp bass driver as well, forgive me if this is an uneducated question. Will the sansamp "fill in" the 700watt headroom I will have in any way?
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
The Sweetwater rep must be correct. After all, he's a sales "engineer."
If you read the Fitzmaurice link provided above, you'll know more than most; certainly more than the Sweetwater sales "engineer" who "helped" you.
If you read the Fitzmaurice link provided above, you'll know more than most; certainly more than the Sweetwater sales "engineer" who "helped" you.
As has been stated, it sounds like the Sweetwater guy doesn't have a clue and shouldn't be around a bass rig. I hope he never operates anything more complicated, like a full-size PA system.
As far as what he said about the combo and 410 combination: It will only hurt the combo if it cannot accept an extension cabinet that has an impedance lower than the combo's acceptable minimum impedance for an extension cab. I've used my 250 watt Carvin MB12 with a 1000 watt Hartke HyDrive 4x10 on a number of gigs before.
Ah yes, that's the other question I have. So my 700rbII and my 412 will be my gigging rig. My mb 210 will be for practice, and I will add an extension for rehearsal. Now, if it is a 800watt 8ohm 410 I'm adding, by my figuring the 210 will receive 250watts and the 410 will receive 250watts. So my 210 is going to be pushed a lot harder than the 410? right? Or am I wrong and the 500 watts will be separated evenly between the 6 speakers.
scottfeldstein
Roots and fifths and a little extra.
Either a) you misunderstood the guy or b) he's stupid or c) he's angling to get you to buy something from his company.
There's absolutely no reason why you can't plug a GK 410MBE into the GK MB210 combo--they are designed to be used together! The esoteric argument about sticking to another 2x10 cab is interesting, but ultimately it's going to sound fine and it won't damage a thing.
I don't believe in the "underpowering" thing, either. To my knowledge, you can't underpower a cab. Yes, you can blow it up by running an amp at too near it's maximum output, but that's a whole other issue.
Also, I have the MB210 combo. I'm currently using the 210MBE cab with it, but seriously thinking about getting the 410MBE cab. If I do, I fully anticipate that it will be fabulous. The end.
There's absolutely no reason why you can't plug a GK 410MBE into the GK MB210 combo--they are designed to be used together! The esoteric argument about sticking to another 2x10 cab is interesting, but ultimately it's going to sound fine and it won't damage a thing.
I don't believe in the "underpowering" thing, either. To my knowledge, you can't underpower a cab. Yes, you can blow it up by running an amp at too near it's maximum output, but that's a whole other issue.
Also, I have the MB210 combo. I'm currently using the 210MBE cab with it, but seriously thinking about getting the 410MBE cab. If I do, I fully anticipate that it will be fabulous. The end.
You are correct. While this won't really 'hurt' anything, the general rule is with cabs of the same desing (like a 112 and 212 from the same manufacturer, or a 210/410 from the same manufacturer), the smaller cab should have twice the impedance.
So, an 8ohm 210 and a 4ohm 410, which will give each driver the same wattage (1/6th). The downside is that will give you a total impedance of 2.67 ohms, so the head would have to operate safely at that level.
Your best bet with a combo is to get the identical extension cab (i.e., another GK210) at the same impedance (I assume 8 ohm) You would then have a modular 410, basically.
I'm going to go with B, as I don't think I misunderstood him and he suggested I get a 210 rather than a 410 because according to him, the 410 will barely be heard if I do that (again gk RECOMMENDS the 410 as an EXCELLENT extension to the 210 combo). His thinking is (as has been stated above) I'm going to have 2 ten in speakers getting 250 watts, and then i'm going to have 4 ten inch speakers getting the same 250 but they won't be pushed as far so thus, I would run into problems with the combo itself being much louder than the extension.
Most of us are familiar with the sound of a speaker cabinet that is being overpowered. When the speakers first reach the threshold of farting the notes distort just on the attack of the note and on the lower notes first. But as the power level rises the distortion continues longer into the note and at severe levels will make the note sound like a long fart. With underpowering the speakers, the warning signs are much more subtle and take a more experienced ear to detect. Suppose you are running an 8x10 cab that is rated at 1000 watts. And you are going to drive it with a bass head that you made by sawing the top off of a Behringer 200 watt combo amp. Underpowering of the speakers could happen even with the knob on your bass up all the way, all twelve of the effects on your pedal board maxed, and the Behringer (including all the EQ's) set to ten. The 1000 watt cabinet will try to suck more wattage out of your amp than it can supply. Unlike overpowering, the first audible sign of danger will not be a loud fart on the attack of the note. It will sound like a short squeaker fart, almost a chirp. This tells you that the speaker cabinet has tried to suck so much power out of the amp that now the tranformer has begun to shoot out up to 200 watts of direct current. That is what blows up gear. So if you want to run a rig like you are contemplating just learn to listen for the warning sign, that little chirping sound. And be careful.
Thank you all for the input btw, again the pool of knowledge here never ceases to amaze me. Thank you for the patience, I'm learning slowly but surely.
scottfeldstein
Roots and fifths and a little extra.
Ok, I'm interested in hearing more about this concept...
In this case, it won't. The MB210 cannot safely be run at 2.6. I believe the combo by itself is 350w to its own 8 ohm cab. Adding an external 8 ohm cab to it results in 500w and a 4 ohm load.
This is exactly what I have. What I wonder is: if I swapped the 210 cab out for a 410, would I get more volume out of the setup? That is, would I a) be able to turn the knob up higher and/or b) would more volume be present at the same knob position?
Does the combo's internal 210 limit what I can get out of a larger external cab? If so, how much? It can't be that there's absolutely no benefit in terms of usable volume from using a larger cab...
No offense, but this is not correct. The wattage rating of a cab has NOTHING to do with a cab 'trying to suck that much power out of a head'. That is not what a cabinet power rating represents at all.
SPL can be an issue, but SPL is, again for all practical purposes, unrelated to the cabinet's thermal rating (i.e., the max power that can be applied to the drivers prior to heat damage). If you have a very low SPL cab (i.e., a cab that is voiced very low, and very even in the mids), then you might need more power than you think to get it up to volume. That is a different issue though, and again, relatively independent of 'power rating' of the cab.
If you plan on using them together at the same time the cabs HAVE to be rated 8ohms or higher. If both are 4 or one is 8 and one is 4 that head won't support the ohm load.
It just seems like due to overpowering and supposed underpowering problems, there's really only a handful or less of setups that you can use, given that logic. Example, gk makes a 1600 watt 810, however the most output you can get from a gk amp is 1040 ish watts from a 2001rb, so why would they bother? Again with a 700rbII, I find that with any of the lower end gk amps it would probably blow them at high volumes (i have blown goldlines and backlines with my 700rbII. again, I play metal). so am I to understand that a 800 watt neo 410 would still be underpowered run from a 700rbII? The logic just isn't there for me, why would they bother?
You will get more volume... more drivers almost always equals more volume. However, given that your 210 and 410 will each receive half of the power of your amp (assuming both are 8ohm), then each 210 driver will be getting twice the power of each 410 driver. As long as you don't drive the 210 to failure, this isn't really a big deal. You will just be underutilizing the 410 a touch, and on very loud gigs, possibly pushing the 210 into overexcursion (i.e., farting out or compressing). Thermally, the 210 will be fine (i.e., you won't blow it up).
To your last question, only the impedance of the two cabs will determine the power each gets, not the number of drivers, etc.
That is why the 4ohm 410/80hm 210 (I realize your head will not allow this) is so cool, since you literally have a modular 610 that automatically 'power adjusts' with the cab combination (assuming a solid state power section). 210... lowest power at 8ohms, 410... higher power at 4ohms, 210/410... highest power at 2.67 ohms (all the while resulting in each driver getting approximately the same wattage in every configuration.
