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Old Acoustic amps vs modern power amps

M

Magman

Feb 23, 2001
485
14
Minneapolis/Saint Paul MN
www.myspace.com
#1
Most reviews of old 70's Acoustic amps (say, the 370) report how bone rattling loud they are. The 350 or so watt rating would apparently seem to be rather conservative.

Assuming one likes the sound... can anyone shed some light on how these stack up against modern clean power amps in the ooomph department? Would they be equivalent to say a 1000 watts from a decent modern amp? And how are they with loud modern cabs?

I'm really curious about some of this old 70's gear... and I'm starting to wonder wether my rack with eq, power amp, power strip, limiter etc could just be replaced with some old vintage beast which you can just crank and be done with it. My tone, though it has quite a bit of edge... is generally overdriven and dirty so some growl from the amp would be fine. Less headroom but more overall muscle would actually be ok. Certainly the general 'vibe' is appealing.

Most the reviews of the old acoustic rigs seem to put them in a league of their own in terms of the visceral impact described. Few reviews of modern equipment seem to have quite the same awe in them! Though maybe thats just down to the 301 folded horn cab etc.
 
#2
Man, you simply cannot go wrong with a nice old Acoustic. They have great tone, zero sex appeal and weigh a ton... what more do you want?!

BTW, the 360 wasn't the only Acoustic ever made. There are a bunch of other models that sound good too ( but I've never actually plugged into a 360 yet so maybe it is "all that"! I'm about to be the owner/operator of a two 360 cab rig ( JPJ style all the way!) shortly so I may be selling off my "wanna be" Acoustics!
 
#3
Having lived through that era, and also somewhat regularly playing the older Acoustics that come through Low Down Sound on consignment, most of the comments are based on 'fond, wistful memories' than reality IMO and IME.

The Acoustics sounded great, and just like the old GK400/800, they still sound great, and they have a signature tone that many like.

Do the huge, heavy, low wattage Acoustics match up to the much smaller, much lighter, much more powerful current SS amps... not even close. However, the Acoustics do have a meaty, mid punchy tone to them that still sounds good (as do the GK's.) However, the low end response when pushed at high volumes brings me back to reality with these heads, and quickly reminds you that these are much lower powered than the wonderful SS heads currently available.

That being said, many of the new modern SS heads are voiced to be very wide, even and clean, and this can be a turnoff to those looking for the 'dirty grind' of some of the earlier SS executions.

IMO and IME.

Edit: A case in point... we just recently had an old GK400RB at a GTG, and we were all impressed with the tone and volume compared to all the modern heads (smaller and much higher power) we were checking out. However, we then noticed that the GK was almost maxed out on the useable volume with the master, and all the other heads were barely breaking a sweat at 9 o'clock on the master. There's no magic there regarding volume for these lower wattage heads, but they do seem to have a more aggressive, 'dirty' voicing that can sound really good for some contexts.
 
#4
KJung nailed it. The Acoustics sound loud because their distortion characteristics are through the roof by today's standards. More distortion -> sounds louder.

Another thing to consider is that those heads were designed to be matched to some pretty large and low cabs (the 301 for example). A lot of the bone-rattle came from the interaction of the head and the efficient cabs.

Not saying they are bad or anything, just pointing out the obvious.
 
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#5
The Acoustic 370 didn't really have that much power. The single 18 w cab had a 4 ohm speaker in it that helped to maximize power from the amp. I used a 370 head with a Sunn 200 S for a while and it wasn't much more powerful than a Dual Showman I had used before, and never sounded anywhere NEAR as good as the Fender.

I SUSPECT THE OUTPUT WAS CLOSER TO 200 WATTS rms AT 4 OHMS.
 
#6
Magman said:
Assuming one likes the sound... can anyone shed some light on how these stack up against modern clean power amps in the ooomph department? Would they be equivalent to say a 1000 watts from a decent modern amp? And how are they with loud modern cabs?

I'm really curious about some of this old 70's gear... and I'm starting to wonder wether my rack with eq, power amp, power strip, limiter etc could just be replaced with some old vintage beast which you can just crank and be done with it...
Click to expand...
EXACTLY the type of questions I've had for years - hence we started a magazine to find out (sorry for the seemingly shameless plug - but it's true...)
 
#7
Dude, I wish I still had my Acoustic 126. I know where it is, just don't have the $400 to buy it back.

Though it was raited at only 100 watts I can tell you that I never, ever had it turned wide open, including some outside gigs. I played with a couple of guys using 60 & 100 watt guitar amps and a drummer and could leave them all in the smoke, wheezing and begging for mercy. I can't explain the technology behind it but I can tell you I've never played another 100 watt amp that even came close!

You simply can't go wrong with them if you have the space and the back for them.
 
#8
Thanks for the replies everyone!

Theres a definite mojo about the better 70's gear which just aesthetically is appealing and kind of talks to me! Plus its my favourite decade for recorded music.

Maybe I should just satisfy my curiosity...Like muscle cars from the 70's....I don't even like cars much but the Dodge challenger in Vanishing Point....come on....how cool is that :-)

Cabs like that one with partially horn loaded one with 4 15's in it look like secret sonic weapons from the 50's. I start thinking about a retrofit with neo speakers.

Lots of pro bassists from the 70's (or non pro) still around today don't seem to have too much GAS for this old stuff but since so few manufacturers make horn loaded cabinets...entire generations of players havn't experienced them...so theres curiosity again. DJs use them though, which for a while there was what you did instead of learn guitar or drums in ya teens!

I've observed before how its a bit ironic to use pedals/preamps to dirty up ones tone and run it through a large mono high power hifi system (which is was many modern rigs are including mine) --- whereas in the past one just cranked the amp and the natural lowpass qualities of the speakers took care of the nasty highs. No fighting with a tweeter.

Presumably you cannot even buy SS amps with a sound like the old Acoustics anymore.

I've noticed bands locally with vintage (or vintage inspired ie tube heads with 215 or 810) rigs.... there is not too much deep low end and can sometimes be quite mushy sounding. Though an SVT810 will hit you in the chest though. One exception comes to mind is 200watt tube head with 412 and 118 that I've heard used...very nice.

18's are definitely underrated at the moment and have been for a while.
 
#9
See...its EXACTLY these kind of stories that only a few SS heads seem to create.

Normally....people here are "dude, my clip light is coming on" "I'm not loud enough" "I boosted all the mids and I'm still not loud enough but I'm rate 800 watts"

With Acoustics though.... they always seem to own the band!

Maybe it is just inherent compression and harmonic distortion...nonetheles....this gets back to my point....don't need a limiter/compressor etc etc. just like 70's cars didn;t need computers to get 300hp.

I mean, if you lop off 3db of peaks with natural amp compression, you've effectively doubled output of the amp (kindasorta)?


wkbryan said:
Dude, I wish I still had my Acoustic 126. I know where it is, just don't have the $400 to buy it back.

Though it was raited at only 100 watts I can tell you that I never, ever had it turned wide open, including some outside gigs. I played with a couple of guys using 60 & 100 watt guitar amps and a drummer and could leave them all in the smoke, wheezing and begging for mercy. I can't explain the technology behind it but I can tell you I've never played another 100 watt amp that even came close!

You simply can't go wrong with them if you have the space and the back for them.
Click to expand...
 
#10
Magman-
I had an Acoustic head (405 or 450) that I ran through an Acoustic 6x12 bottom. It could cover a lot of room without PA support. I don't think it was rated over 200 watts, but it sure was loud. When I bought it in the early 70's, Acoustic was a premium brand. A great amp that bit the dust after about 25 years of gigging.
 
#11
jz0h4d said:
The Acoustic 370 didn't really have that much power. The single 18 w cab had a 4 ohm speaker in it that helped to maximize power from the amp. I used a 370 head with a Sunn 200 S for a while and it wasn't much more powerful than a Dual Showman I had used before, and never sounded anywhere NEAR as good as the Fender.

I SUSPECT THE OUTPUT WAS CLOSER TO 200 WATTS rms AT 4 OHMS.
Click to expand...
+1 It's the 1x18 cab. I hooked an 80 watt Sunn 200S up to the 1x18 cab and it wasn't quite as loud but sound a whole lot better (imho). Than what came out of the Acoustic head.
 
#12
I'd like to put in a kind word for the Acoustic 370. It kills live with a band. It may not fit in all contexts. It has a distinct tone. To hell with flat 20-20 frequency response. It's loud, sits well in the mix for rock, country, blues, reggae etc. What more do you need? Big and bulky, but not compared to an SVT. I had a Alembic F1X and QSC power amp for a while and went back to using the Acoustic just for the sheer umph of that thing.
 
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#13
Yeah....this is what I'm thinking.... that maybe top end vintage rigs might be just as effective for what I want as a modern hi-fi one.

Maybe I'll just have to put together such a rig see how I and the rest of the band likes it.

Acoustic are getting rather collectible though! At least that means if its not my cup of tea I can sell it easily.


Kirkowitz said:
I'd like to put in a kind word for the Acoustic 370. It kills live with a band. It may not fit in all contexts. It has a distinct tone. To hell with flat 20-20 frequency response. It's loud, sits well in the mix for rock, country, blues, reggae etc. What more do you need? Big and bulky, but not compared to an SVT. I had a Alembic F1X and QSC power amp for a while and went back to using the Acoustic just for the sheer umph of that thing.
Click to expand...
 
#14
If you can find a decent Acoustic 370, try it. You will almost certainly be able to re-sell it for about what you paid for it, if not more, since they seem to be going up right now.

My first Acoustic bass amp was a 136 combo that a friend GAVE me to get out of his house. I never gave it much thought until one day my main rig crapped out on me and I had to use it for a show. It's only rated at about 125 watts and I thought it would be lost. Not only did it keep up with the band, but it sounded great keeping up with the band.

You can study all the specs you want, but at the end of the day, the real issue is, when you plug it in and turn it on, does it get the job done. Certainly many people have experienced a rig that "should" sound great but just doesn't quite pull it off. My experience with Acoustics has been the opposite: they're old; they don't have many features; they are relatively low-wattage---and yet, when push comes to shove, they step up and perform.
 
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#15
Probably 6-7 yrs ago I had acquired an Acoustic 370 head and matching cabinet. I do recall taking it into a local music store to test out some cabinets and A/B’ing against some modern heads and thinking it was louder than the modern stuff. Maybe it was something about its voicing.

A friend of mine who was playing in a large funk band called me and told me his head had died and wondered if he could borrow one of mine. So I offered him my SWR 400S which was the best head I had at the time. He brought it back the next day and said he didn’t care for it so I mentioned the 370 and he asked if he could try that one. I said sure and he absolutely loved it. He used it hard for another couple of years without a problem. I eventually (and stupidly) sold the 370 a few years later. I saw one for sale locally recently and am thinking of getting it.

Paging Harvey to white courtesy phone.
 
#16
I'll keep an eye on craigslist I think.

So are there any other vintage monsters worth investigating?

Sunn and Acoustic, as people have mentioned, are not the untrendy dogs they once were.

Seems everything has its day of being undeservedly unfashionable and then theres a resurgence of interest in the classic designs (jazzmaster guitars, rhodes, analog synths etc)

70's peavey bass amps....though worked just fine for Lynard Skynard I believe... do a look a bit primitive.

Though even those had their knockoffs like Earth...

I saw a beaten up folded horn fridge cab at a local store once, dirt cheap....if that were now I'd probably pick it up - upgrade the driver etc.
 
#18
Yeah still not pricey at all is the old 70's Kustom amps. A friend has an old '70's Peavey SS monster that sounds good. Not as clean as the Acoustic at volume, but it sounds good. I don't know what the deal is on these old amps kicking like they do. I guess if you roll off the extreme lows you have more wattage to place where you can feel it. Keep an eye out for an old Acoustic though. They pop up in weird places. I think Bass NW had one for sale on their site recently. I know the caps in the 370 look like beer cans. I'm sure this has something to do with that big kickin' sound.
 
#19
yeah i have an acoustic 370 and a markbass sa450. first off the tone you are getting from an amp/cab is going to sound either tasty or ****** depending on your technique. a good bass player can get tasty sound out of ANYTHING. as for the gear, i have a/b the two amps through different cabs. through my vintage reverse facing 18" sound source cab the acoustic 370 projects and growls and just reams like nothing you've ever heard. the markbass is nice, but a bit gutless through the 18" in comparison. i assume this will be similar to the folded horn reverse facing 18" acoustic cabs. however, when i go to the new generation of more transparent cabs, like say the epifani UL212 or the markbass 6x10 (which is refreshingly warm and growly even though transparent), the acoustic doesn't stand a chance. it just doesn't have the articulation necessary for that kind of transparent projection. so it is simply a matter of taste and functionality. with the markbass and a good modern cab i can get any tone i want. i can sound like jaco, victor, anybody! the 370 does one specific tone very very well. well i guess there is a small range good tones - ie: a little less midrange growl, or a little more midrange growl. :D and it's fun using vintage gear. personally i am selling the 370, because i want portability and versatility (and i need groceries). if i had my own house and jam spot? i'd keep the 370 and hand it down to my grandkids.
 
#20
I had a 450, 175 watts through a 2X15 cab. or a Cerwin Vega MF-3612, or a 1X15 folded horn with a 1X15 front facing cab on top. The head always sounded like I wanted it to... but it was always blowing up. When I got rid of it it had nowhere left to scratch the service dates (thanks to a lifetime warranty).

In the late '80s (or when they were first released) I went with a SWR ST-220 and a pair of Mesa Diesel 1X15 cabs and again I got the sound I wanted to hear.

Until now I'd never used a head and cabs from the same company so I can't speak to an all Acoustic rig.
 

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