Double Bass Old-time/string band bass

[Sam Sherry]

Wynton Marsalis? I don't know about him, man. But I know he doesn't talk like that when we're alone together. 'Preserve this' and 'preserve that’ — the way they're going we'll have blacks back on the plantation. I mean, it already is preserved. Isn't that what records are all about?

I just tell people it's like this: I can't wear bell-bottom pants anymore. And I don't drive an Edsel. I drive a Ferrari.

Mark Rowland, "Miles Davis is a Living Legend and You're Not," Musician, May 1987

I was trying to play like Coltrane in Blakey’s band, and one day Blakey walks by and says, “What the **** are you doing?” I said, “I’m trying to play like Coltrane,” and he said, “No, you’re not!” And so I sarcastically said back to him, “Oh, so the best way to learn how to play like Coltrane is to not listen to Coltrane, right?” And he says, “Well, let me ask you this: When Coltrane was your age, what the **** do you think he was listening to, tapes of himself in the future? You dumb mother****er!” And he walked off. And he left me with it.

Bill Milkoswki, "Like It Is: The Branford Marsalis Interview," JazzTimes, October 2012

 

[Ed S]

Stupid post. Must have been in a mood. Listen to what you want. Music is free.

Don't be so hard on yourself. I think cranky old farts are undervalued!

I'm in a completely different class than you, but I enjoy and benefit from listening to BOTH the old and the new. As you say, the old is where it comes from. Whether we change it or not, we oughtn't lose track of that sound as the foundation. And that foundation should exist SOMEWHERE in whatever you are doing. But I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it challenging at times to devise a bassline for a scratchy recording of a banjo picker playing some crooked tune. I often find it curious how sometimes I'll listen to just a solo fiddle of banjo, and I can hear a bassline in my head. Other times, I'll just thing, "*** am I supposed to play along with THAT?!" (Hint - generally less!). On the one hand, working up such lines is the surest way to really be creative. But sometimes it helps to get a leg up from some folk who previously adapted/orchestrated an old tune.

But sometimes I'll come up with a bassline that really appeals to me for whatever reason, but when I go back to the source material, I'll realize I completely changed the feel of the song. I'm often surprised - and generally pleased - when my band attempts to cover a certain song, and after we've got it down, we realize we sound nothing like what we thought we were emulating. As you know, sometimes our efforts are more successful than others!

And, be on the lookout for opportunities to get your self ONTO that back porch - if not with some old-timer, with someone with that oldtime spirit. Where the fiddler/banjo are calling out song after song you've never heard of, but you try to add to the flavor w/o tripping over yourself and detracting from it. Where, every once in a while, the leader will lean over to you and say (nicely or not) "That dog won't hunt!" So you find yourself a new dog... Can be exhausting - but also incredibly rewarding.

Picking up clawhammer as a 2d instrument has helped me better appreciate some of the rawer old recordings (although humbling in its own way, as I realize I know how to play every single thing they are playing. It is just that they are playing it so much better, faster, and more creatively!)

Don't apologize for posting while "in a mood." I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates your posts - cranky or not.

 

[turf3]

As I'm sure you know, this has been going on in bluegrass long before the Marsalises! But it's going on in jazz since it was a definable genre as well (AFAIK). I recently learned that Max Roach punched Ornette because he hated his music.

The moldy figs vs. progressives battle's been going on in jazz since the first guys started playing in four, back in - what? about 1925 or so.

 

[statsc]

I would say go back further and listen to the old stuff, DEFINITELY...but listen to whatever you like. I should have just kept my mouth shut, now I can't edit the post out. That's what I get for being stupid.

Not stupid at all! I think what you're getting at is the importance of the music's connection to culture, a connection that I think is often lost or overlooked in today's clickable "everything is everything" world. When you go back to those original recordings, you get a small window into the culture that birthed that music. Even better is some kind of first-hand F2F experience with someone from that culture, or who has direct connections to that culture. Even better than that is a "boots-on-the-ground" experience of that culture and the music that reflects it. Once you have these kinds of connections, the places where you take the music is so much richer, in my opinion! A great example of this from my lifetime was the Red Clay Ramblers, a band from N. Carolina steeped in the traditions and culture of old time string band music, who took the music to such interesting and dynamic places. New Orleans is also such a great musical place for this as it wears its culture on its sleeve, expressed in the music played every day there.

 

[garrett2]

Not stupid at all! I think what you're getting at is the importance of the music's connection to culture, a connection that I think is often lost or overlooked in today's clickable "everything is everything" world. When you go back to those original recordings, you get a small window into the culture that birthed that music.

One of the great things about living in Boston is being able to go to an Irish session in a pub pretty much when the mood strikes you. The experience is very different from seeing Irish musicians in a concert hall. Whoever shows up plays and the level is usually very, very high. You drink, buy the fiddler a dram (!), and listen as the musicians communicate and share a rich heritage of song -- inflected by all sorts of regional variations (like Old Time fiddling) -- with each other and with you. One of the most moving musical experiences I've ever had was going to see Paddy Keenan in the back room of the Burran. He is perhaps the greatest living Uillieann pipe player (very high on the list of the hardest instruments to master). Anyway he and a guitarist were on a stage and he was visibly uncomfortable. He asked the audience to sit on the stage with him. He had played at huge venues. But the music speaks best when everyone is sitting around, drinking and talking. Ever since then I find it hard to watch Irish music on a stage.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Wouldn’t I V I V I I V I sound better?

You play what the guitarist plays or you come to an agreement. She likes the IV. I play the four.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Not stupid at all! I think what you're getting at is the importance of the music's connection to culture, a connection that I think is often lost or overlooked in today's clickable "everything is everything" world. When you go back to those original recordings, you get a small window into the culture that birthed that music. Even better is some kind of first-hand F2F experience with someone from that culture, or who has direct connections to that culture. Even better than that is a "boots-on-the-ground" experience of that culture and the music that reflects it. Once you have these kinds of connections, the places where you take the music is so much richer, in my opinion! A great example of this from my lifetime was the Red Clay Ramblers, a band from N. Carolina steeped in the traditions and culture of old time string band music, who took the music to such interesting and dynamic places. New Orleans is also such a great musical place for this as it wears its culture on its sleeve, expressed in the music played every day there.

Well, that's being gracious. I came to Oldtime music in a very organic way and my experience was extremely lucky. I first heard the music live at Galax on the very soil it was conceived by the players who helped bring it out into the light of the general public. I got to hear the ninety year old fiddlers, still playing, out in the hot sun at their campsites. I literally got to see, hear and even befriend the last of a dying breed. That's lucky! So I guess I think I can speak with some authority on the subject though I'm not particularly comfortable with it. I saw some things, let's leave it at that. I moved to Mt. Airy so I could play all year around with the folks of the region, house paries, dances, ruritans. I worked along side the mountain people. I ate dinner. I experienced their losses. I was a driven person and I spared nothing when it came to learning music firsthand. To this day I'm not sure how I pulled that off. But I did. That is a far cry from the way people take in music these days. The kid who finds oldtime music through a Hawktail record is not wrong. You find it how you find it. I have to watch my tone. That's all. Btw I also moved to NOLA in the nineties and pretty much did the same thing there for eight years, absorbing the music all the way from Jackson Square up to Tipitinas.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Don't be so hard on yourself. I think cranky old farts are undervalued!

I'm in a completely different class than you, but I enjoy and benefit from listening to BOTH the old and the new. As you say, the old is where it comes from. Whether we change it or not, we oughtn't lose track of that sound as the foundation. And that foundation should exist SOMEWHERE in whatever you are doing. But I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it challenging at times to devise a bassline for a scratchy recording of a banjo picker playing some crooked tune. I often find it curious how sometimes I'll listen to just a solo fiddle of banjo, and I can hear a bassline in my head. Other times, I'll just thing, "*** am I supposed to play along with THAT?!" (Hint - generally less!). On the one hand, working up such lines is the surest way to really be creative. But sometimes it helps to get a leg up from some folk who previously adapted/orchestrated an old tune.

But sometimes I'll come up with a bassline that really appeals to me for whatever reason, but when I go back to the source material, I'll realize I completely changed the feel of the song. I'm often surprised - and generally pleased - when my band attempts to cover a certain song, and after we've got it down, we realize we sound nothing like what we thought we were emulating. As you know, sometimes our efforts are more successful than others!

And, be on the lookout for opportunities to get your self ONTO that back porch - if not with some old-timer, with someone with that oldtime spirit. Where the fiddler/banjo are calling out song after song you've never heard of, but you try to add to the flavor w/o tripping over yourself and detracting from it. Where, every once in a while, the leader will lean over to you and say (nicely or not) "That dog won't hunt!" So you find yourself a new dog... Can be exhausting - but also incredibly rewarding.

Picking up clawhammer as a 2d instrument has helped me better appreciate some of the rawer old recordings (although humbling in its own way, as I realize I know how to play every single thing they are playing. It is just that they are playing it so much better, faster, and more creatively!)

Don't apologize for posting while "in a mood." I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates your posts - cranky or not.

I remember playing bass along to old vinyl records in my friends house in Mt. Airy and being completely lost. I did not immediately have a very good ear for the music. Where I thought there were eight chords there was one. I only really learned by playing at festivals all summer long, camping and listening until I could barely hear another tune. It really takes some time to really get it.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Well I know JS is very accomplished and all that but not everyone wants to listen to crusty old time recordings... sorry if your feelings are hurt by my suggestion of a new recording. I do not propose it as a classic example of OT music. Everyone probably knows the way to learn old time or most trad music is with a group of jammer.

Gatekeep much?!!

My feelings were not hurt at all. Gatekeeping. Hmmm. I'm not so sure about that. I would be the worst gatekeeper! A guy who constantly brings a bass into places where it is not expected or even wanted has pretty much been my whole life's work. I have played or recorded with so many different folks from so many different genres I'm not sure I would recognize a gate if I saw one, or even a fence for that matter. As always I should let the bass talk and keep my mouth shut.

 

[Eli Brockway]

Some folks approach things from the point of view of an educator or the like, pointing out what would be the right way to go in and get acquainted with an overall topic, art form, etc. etc.; this is almost always done with the intent of bettering everybody's experience that decides to dive into it beyond the superficial level.

Some folks get mad because they take the words said entirely at face value and choose to interpret that as a direct attack rather than understanding the intent that's behind them or considering that they apply to the topic at hand rather than just a single statement made, and then decide to fire back at the perceived insult.

Then sometimes someone like Paul will be around to jump in and have a good laugh at the second person's expense, or Don, who'll just have a laugh at everybody's expense (his own included, don't you know, he still has to pay the electric and internet bills to come on here and laugh at us all).

You're fine, Jason, people are going to be irritable no matter what you do or don't say or how you decide to say it.

 

[Ed S]

As always I should let the bass talk and keep my mouth shut.

Quite a bit of posting, but you sure nailed the landing!

 

[Dave Leighton]

My feelings were not hurt at all. Gatekeeping. Hmmm. I'm not so sure about that. I would be the worst gatekeeper! A guy who constantly brings a bass into places where it is not expected or even wanted has pretty much been my whole life's work. I have played or recorded with so many different folks from so many different genres I'm not sure I would recognize a gate if I saw one, or even a fence for that matter. As always I should let the bass talk and keep my mouth shut.

First off, please don’t keep your mouth shut. When I see your name pop up in the DB section, I check it out, as with several other names. I have benefited from your words.

I’m a 63 year old rock guy that was invited to play in a progressive bluegrass band about two years ago. And was coerced into playing DB 6 months later. Best decision I have ever made. I think.

I was blessed to grow up with all kinds of music around. My mom had a scholarship to University of Washington for music. Blew it off to have a family. Ah, the 50’s…Rock stuck… If you would have asked me a few years ago about anything bluegrass, you would have gotten a blank stare. Now, will probably still get a blank stare. It’s all still so new and fresh to this old fart that it is like when I first heard the pulse of Hold Your Head Up by Argent as a kid.

As a part of this journey recently started, you turned me onto Rhiannon Giddens, which in turn lead me to Carolina Chocolate Drops, which has lead me deeper. Just as Old Crow has done.

I will always be a rock guy, playing bluegrass the way I play. And I hope to be able to continue to listen and learn from folks like you.

Blessings, Dave

 

[Jeffon]

I didn't mean to ruffle anybody feathers ( I am new here and u all have a lot thinner skin than some other internet forum folks! I'm not usually a stir-the-pot guy on other forums, either). I can see JS gets alot of respect here - and it is well-deserved as his posts are very enlightening and his experience shows.

I have been a proponent of listening to the "old stuff" to learn the REAL WAY in bluegrass for the 25 years I have been playing bgrass and d.b. I listen to lots of sonically sub-par recordings ("there is a bass on it?!") and appreciate the value in learning from the old masters of every musical form/genre. I have shown my Bluegrass Police badge many times in the past... but I don't really bother anymore as my idea of what is real or not doesn't matter much. I have lots of friends that want to hear the same style of bluegrass as me and I play with them as much as I can and still can have fun with others.

Go out and get into some jams and go to festivals and camps/workshops to learn this great FUN music and grab onto those folks who can help you learn on your journey! Thanks all for sharing their experiences.

 

[Ed S]

I didn't mean to ruffle anybody feathers ( I am new here and u all have a lot thinner skin than some other internet forum folks! I'm not usually a stir-the-pot guy on other forums, either). I can see JS gets alot of respect here - and it is well-deserved as his posts are very enlightening and his experience shows.

I don't participate in a lot of other forums, but my impression is that folk here are more respectful of each other than many if not most places online.

If you perceive folk as "thin-skinned", you might wish to consider the potential contributing impact of a relatively new participant characterizing others as "thin skinned", having their feelings hurt, and being "gatekeepers" within their first week of joining.

(If you think anything that happened in THIS thread reflects thin skin, perhaps I could suggest a topic or 2 for you! )

 

[Eli Brockway]

(If you think anything that happened in THIS thread reflects thin skin, perhaps I could suggest a topic or 2 for you! )

I'm still laughing at the one Irish guy, nearly two years later. Would've liked to see him get a bit more sense, but, well, "cuir síoda ar ghabhar agus is gabhar i gconaí é" and all that.

 

[Paul New]

Lately I’m hearing a lot of three finger banjo in what would otherwise be considered old time, and some clawhammer in what would otherwise be considered bluegrass. What’s a man to do???

 

[Paul New]

 

[turf3]

Lately I’m hearing a lot of three finger banjo in what would otherwise be considered old time, and some clawhammer in what would otherwise be considered bluegrass. What’s a man to do???

I have read that three finger banjo actually predates bluegrass by a considerable amount. Certainly there's no issue with playing the older clawhammer styles in bluegrass.

To me, looking back at it from the 2024 perspective, the HUUUUGE divisions between old-time, bluegrass, and traditional country seem more like flavors of the same thing, whereas the police of each style see them as giant walls over which it's almost impossible to vault. Of course, talented musicians see it all as just music.

 

[Don Hergert]

Three-finger and other finger-style / guitar-style banjo playing became the norm in the "Classic banjo" period, post Civil War to the early 1930s. Three-finger Scruggs' Style / Bluegrass style was an adaptation of that. Plectrum / flat-picking on 4-string banjos originated in the 1880s and became the norm during the early jazz decades. During this period there were also a lot of hybrid-necked banjos, mando-banjos, guitar-banjos, banjo-ukes, etc., to accommodate players of those instruments.

The earliest forms of old time / clawhammer / stroke-style banjo came to the US with the slaves; there is documentation of it in North America before the Revolutionary War. There is also modern documentation of banjo-type instruments, including a short drone string, being played stroke-style among the people of the Senegalese / Gambian river country dating centuries earlier.

There certainly was cross-over of styles among individual banjo players in the earlier days, just as there is today. As said, some folks are able to "see it all as just music", and some aren't. There's room for both.

 

[Paul New]

I have read that three finger banjo actually predates bluegrass by a considerable amount. Certainly there's no issue with playing the older clawhammer styles in bluegrass.

To me, looking back at it from the 2024 perspective, the HUUUUGE divisions between old-time, bluegrass, and traditional country seem more like flavors of the same thing, whereas the police of each style see them as giant walls over which it's almost impossible to vault. Of course, talented musicians see it all as just music.

It depends on who you ask. Me, personally, if it sounds good, it is good.

But there are rules of etiquette that deserve some attention, if only to keep things copacetic. In most jams there will be people who demand strict attention to the rules, and it seems to me that things get more codified as time passes. For example, it’s accepted that oval hole mandolins don’t cut the mustard in bluegrass , period. But Andy Statman played his old Gibson A2 in plenty of Bluegrass bands back in the day, and cut the mustard just fine. Jimmy Martin’s fiddler, one of them, played an oval when he doubled on mandolin. But these days, if you show up at s bluegrass jam with an oval or play chop chords at an old time jam, eyebrows will be raised. And maybe the later is a good thing.

Anyway, I’m not complaining or seeking The Way, just commenting.