Yes, my life is definitely a run-on sentence!I thought a purist was someone who eschewed newfangled concepts such as paragraph breaks!
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Double Bass Old-time/string band bass
- Thread starter McGryff
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Around here, people play old time for fun or dances, bluegrass or country when they want to make money. At a good house party, you might find all three, but always in separate jams, never one jam mixing it up.
I'm a proponent of gatekeeping. If no one keeps the gates, they get all rusty and the hinges break or the post rots and what was once two pastures is now one and the ram gets in with the ewes and what was once two distinct breeds is now a featureless mishmash and you can't tell what's coming from where and the fence gets loose and hippies with bad right hands get in. Now, that's not to say the gate should be LOCKED, a good latch will be just fine, but you shouldn't unlatch it until you know which breed is in which pasture, and the defining characteristics of each. Cross with intention, not out of laziness.
I'm a proponent of gatekeeping. If no one keeps the gates, they get all rusty and the hinges break or the post rots and what was once two pastures is now one and the ram gets in with the ewes and what was once two distinct breeds is now a featureless mishmash and you can't tell what's coming from where and the fence gets loose and hippies with bad right hands get in. Now, that's not to say the gate should be LOCKED, a good latch will be just fine, but you shouldn't unlatch it until you know which breed is in which pasture, and the defining characteristics of each. Cross with intention, not out of laziness.
When everything is everything, nothing is really anything!
Relative to the brouhaha that Jason started inadvertently, my musical life has been mostly being attracted to new music that I later found out was based on older music, which started me looking back. That probably came from all the clues Frank Zappa used to leave on his earliest albums. Who was this Eric Dolphy guy and why was he in need of a memorial barbecue. Etc.
My entry into jazz was actually through free jazz and fusion. Mahavishnu, Sun Ra, Dolphy, late period Coltrane, Herbie Hancock’s Mwandishi and Headhunters bands, electric Miles, etc. Took me years to get to the point where I was listening to Louis Armstrong and other jazz of the 20s and early 30s.
The same thing with bluegrass. I had a banjo player as a roommate and we were listening to the first Bela Fleck LP, Tony Rice, David Grisman, Seldom Scene. It would be years before I finally bought a Bill Monroe album or early Flatt and Scruggs.
The same thing with blues. I started with the Brit blues-rockers, then Americans like the Allmans, J. Geils Band, the Nighthawks, George Thorogood. It took a while before I bought a Muddy Waters LP or heard Robert Johnson.
The same thing with classical. I started with Edgard Varese (thanks to FZ) and Switched on Bach. It took me years before coming to real Bach, Mozart, etc.
The reverse journey is worth taking. Modern music is the gateway drug, then you start wondering about where these modern players arecoming from. Eventually you realize that if you want to play a given style of music it’s best to go back to the beginning and work forward. I always joke that jazz musicians had it pretty easy in the 1950s because there was less music they had to listen to and learn
Nowadays, a jazz player needs to know everything from the last 100 years 
My entry into jazz was actually through free jazz and fusion. Mahavishnu, Sun Ra, Dolphy, late period Coltrane, Herbie Hancock’s Mwandishi and Headhunters bands, electric Miles, etc. Took me years to get to the point where I was listening to Louis Armstrong and other jazz of the 20s and early 30s.
The same thing with bluegrass. I had a banjo player as a roommate and we were listening to the first Bela Fleck LP, Tony Rice, David Grisman, Seldom Scene. It would be years before I finally bought a Bill Monroe album or early Flatt and Scruggs.
The same thing with blues. I started with the Brit blues-rockers, then Americans like the Allmans, J. Geils Band, the Nighthawks, George Thorogood. It took a while before I bought a Muddy Waters LP or heard Robert Johnson.
The same thing with classical. I started with Edgard Varese (thanks to FZ) and Switched on Bach. It took me years before coming to real Bach, Mozart, etc.
The reverse journey is worth taking. Modern music is the gateway drug, then you start wondering about where these modern players arecoming from. Eventually you realize that if you want to play a given style of music it’s best to go back to the beginning and work forward. I always joke that jazz musicians had it pretty easy in the 1950s because there was less music they had to listen to and learn
Nowadays, a jazz player needs to know everything from the last 100 years
My first jazz record was The Shape of Jazz to Come. Charlie Haden was my guy and I listened to everything he recorded. The young players around me at the time were all into Steve Coleman and Wayne Shorter etc. I did my best to keep up but over the year I was at the University in the jazz program I kept asking everyone where these tunes came from, what is the source material. That slowly sent me back, first to Ellington and then to Bichet and then to Jelly Roll and then to pan-american music and then to Africa. It was the best thing I ever did and it set my mode of learning from that point on.Relative to the brouhaha that Jason started inadvertently, my musical life has been mostly being attracted to new music that I later found out was based on older music, which started me looking back. That probably came from all the clues Frank Zappa used to leave on his earliest albums. Who was this Eric Dolphy guy and why was he in need of a memorial barbecue. Etc.
My entry into jazz was actually through free jazz and fusion. Mahavishnu, Sun Ra, Dolphy, late period Coltrane, Herbie Hancock’s Mwandishi and Headhunters bands, electric Miles, etc. Took me years to get to the point where I was listening to Louis Armstrong and other jazz of the 20s and early 30s.
The same thing with bluegrass. I had a banjo player as a roommate and we were listening to the first Bela Fleck LP, Tony Rice, David Grisman, Seldom Scene. It would be years before I finally bought a Bill Monroe album or early Flatt and Scruggs.
The same thing with blues. I started with the Brit blues-rockers, then Americans like the Allmans, J. Geils Band, the Nighthawks, George Thorogood. It took a while before I bought a Muddy Waters LP or heard Robert Johnson.
The same thing with classical. I started with Edgard Varese (thanks to FZ) and Switched on Bach. It took me years before coming to real Bach, Mozart, etc.
The reverse journey is worth taking. Modern music is the gateway drug, then you start wondering about where these modern players arecoming from. Eventually you realize that if you want to play a given style of music it’s best to go back to the beginning and work forward. I always joke that jazz musicians had it pretty easy in the 1950s because there was less music they had to listen to and learn
Hi, longtime reader/lurker and weekend warrior DB player. I just want to say that I have found this thread very illuminating. I went from never even hearing of the descriptor "old time" to now having several Memphis Jug Band lps on the way and googling for jams in my area. Beautiful music that I can't believe i was without for so long. Thank you everyone for your insights and opinions, especially Jason!
Careful, you're on the way to spending all your summer mornings waking up unshowered in the back of your truck under the hot Virginia sun in a muddy field that smells like pig **** while some ***hole is playing F tunes at 8:30am. . .
And you just got to sleep an hour and a half ago after drinking moonshine all night and your head is pounding and your brain can’t figure out what tune he’s playing and why it sounds so odd. You remind yourself never to camp next to northerners in shiny new Danner boots and bespoke camping equipment. You finally give up and head over to the southern hippy tent where Charlie is making homemade bacon and grits, people are decoupling and falling out of tents and a lone fiddler slumps in a Walmart folding chair playing something plaintive in cross G.
Two points:
A friend organized a Bluegrass festival back in the late 70s and had a great lineup of well known and respected people. One outfit was what was known then as a "new grass" group. The audience immediately split into factions: old versus new, etc. Some things don't ever change.
Whenever there is a jazz jam organized, the organizers are generally happy to see young players of whatever ability. The fact that they are interested in the music at all is encouraging for the future. If there are any of us more "experienced" players there we feel it is our job to be encouraging and knowledgeable as much as possible- just the way it is.
A friend organized a Bluegrass festival back in the late 70s and had a great lineup of well known and respected people. One outfit was what was known then as a "new grass" group. The audience immediately split into factions: old versus new, etc. Some things don't ever change.
Whenever there is a jazz jam organized, the organizers are generally happy to see young players of whatever ability. The fact that they are interested in the music at all is encouraging for the future. If there are any of us more "experienced" players there we feel it is our job to be encouraging and knowledgeable as much as possible- just the way it is.
I've seen this happen in bluegrass circles, but I've also seen it happen in jazz, country, swing, rock and roll, classical and just about any other genre circles... Bluegrass isn't any worse than any other genre about this.
For example, while jazz isn't my main focus, I spent a number of years helping with a college jazz band. I found the faction issue occurring in jazz just as it does in bluegrass. Old Jazz, bebop, modern jazz, Gypsy... Just like bluegrass, there are those who want to keep things pure and separate, and the same happens in just about any genre.
I think it's more a human thing than a genre thing.
Very true. Early jazz devotees were known as "moldy figs" back in the day and insisted on playing tunes as they were on the old records. If Bix didn't play it on the 78 they didn't want to hear it or play it. Another thing that occurs to me is how long it's been since those days: longer since the 70s til now than between then and those first recordings. They seemed ancient then. It puts things in a certain perspective.
Someone caught this short video segment of our Old Time group awhile back. Nail that Catfish To A Tree.
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Ah - the dreaded hammered dulcimer!
I know that tune, but perhaps by a different name. You sure that is the correct title?
I know we've played Squirrel Heads as well, but not as frequently as that melody. My quick search of Youtube turns up a different melody for that title.
But I'm likely mistaken. I couldn't count the number of songs I KNOW - but if you just told me the name, for the life of me I couldn't tell you how they go. I often think it an amazing phenomena - akin to the old "Name That Tune" - the way someone calls a tune, you've got NO IDEA how it goes, but after no more than a couple of notes, there it is, right under your fingers!
Here's a snip from a dance I played last Dec. Yet another fiddle tune I had never heard before! Nice to play behind a tight group.
I know that tune, but perhaps by a different name. You sure that is the correct title?
I know we've played Squirrel Heads as well, but not as frequently as that melody. My quick search of Youtube turns up a different melody for that title.
But I'm likely mistaken. I couldn't count the number of songs I KNOW - but if you just told me the name, for the life of me I couldn't tell you how they go. I often think it an amazing phenomena - akin to the old "Name That Tune" - the way someone calls a tune, you've got NO IDEA how it goes, but after no more than a couple of notes, there it is, right under your fingers!
Here's a snip from a dance I played last Dec. Yet another fiddle tune I had never heard before!
Nice to play behind a tight group.
Ah - the dreaded hammered dulcimer!
I know that tune, but perhaps by a different name. You sure that is the correct title?
I know we've played Squirrel Heads as well, but not as frequently as that melody. My quick search of Youtube turns up a different melody for that title.
But I'm likely mistaken. I couldn't count the number of songs I KNOW - but if you just told me the name, for the life of me I couldn't tell you how they go. I often think it an amazing phenomena - akin to the old "Name That Tune" - the way someone calls a tune, you've got NO IDEA how it goes, but after no more than a couple of notes, there it is, right under your fingers!
Here's a snip from a dance I played last Dec. Yet another fiddle tune I had never heard before!
You are correct, and I was mistaken. The one I posted is Nail That Catfish To The Tree.
Yep. I shoulda been able to ID it, but - fiddle tunes. For some stupid reason, I always conflate Nail That Catfish with Flopeared Mule. No idea why.
The dulcimer player is kind of the jam leader, to the extent we have one. He makes some really good instruments at Songbird Hammered Dulcimers.
That's fine. Tastes differ. And you play with whom you've got. For me, a little hammered dulcimer goes a long way.
Still can't get over that I was not able to ID Nail That Catfish...!
Yup, gotta play with the available people. Or, as the old dragsters used to say, "Run what ya brung."That's fine. Tastes differ. And you play with whom you've got. For me, a little hammered dulcimer goes a long way.
Still can't get over that I was not able to ID Nail That Catfish...!
I know what you mean about fiddle tunes. I aways confuse Flowers of Edinburgh and Big Sciota.
But so do the fiddlers...
Q. Why is nobody smiling in an Old Time jam?
A. The fiddler is trying to remember what tune he's playing, the guitarist is trying to figure out that second chord in the B part,, and the bassist is wondering where to to eat afterwards.
I don’t know why people get all upset when change comes to any genre of music. It’s like saying all the evolution that led to a certain period of music was OK but continued evolution has to stop.
The whole “newgrass” movement in the 70s and 80s was nothing but younger players who were already well grounded in the roots of bluegrass but also grew up hearing rock and roll. They didn't all grow up dirt poor in hollers, they grew up in suburbs with shopping malls. When the Allmans, Skynyrd and Marshall Tucker came along and Jerry started Old And In the Way, suddenly it was OK to be a redneck hippie. Newgrass was inevitable and then along comes Alison Krauss, making it OK for women to be accepted in bluegrass. Today, it’s a new generation with Billy Strings and Molly Tuttle moving things forward. It’s just evolution.
The whole “newgrass” movement in the 70s and 80s was nothing but younger players who were already well grounded in the roots of bluegrass but also grew up hearing rock and roll. They didn't all grow up dirt poor in hollers, they grew up in suburbs with shopping malls. When the Allmans, Skynyrd and Marshall Tucker came along and Jerry started Old And In the Way, suddenly it was OK to be a redneck hippie. Newgrass was inevitable and then along comes Alison Krauss, making it OK for women to be accepted in bluegrass. Today, it’s a new generation with Billy Strings and Molly Tuttle moving things forward. It’s just evolution.
