Double Bass Old-time/string band bass

[Jason Sypher]

I didn't mean to ruffle anybody feathers ( I am new here and u all have a lot thinner skin than some other internet forum folks! I'm not usually a stir-the-pot guy on other forums, either). I can see JS gets alot of respect here - and it is well-deserved as his posts are very enlightening and his experience shows.

I have been a proponent of listening to the "old stuff" to learn the REAL WAY in bluegrass for the 25 years I have been playing bgrass and d.b. I listen to lots of sonically sub-par recordings ("there is a bass on it?!") and appreciate the value in learning from the old masters of every musical form/genre. I have shown my Bluegrass Police badge many times in the past... but I don't really bother anymore as my idea of what is real or not doesn't matter much. I have lots of friends that want to hear the same style of bluegrass as me and I play with them as much as I can and still can have fun with others.

Go out and get into some jams and go to festivals and camps/workshops to learn this great FUN music and grab onto those folks who can help you learn on your journey! Thanks all for sharing their experiences.

Everyone plays for their own reasons. You definitely didn't ruffle any feathers here. In twenty five years on this forum I for one have seen it all. In fact, when it started it was mostly professionals who constantly ribbed each other and fierce debates broke out that occasionally came to blows.

Whatever we may say or do or think it all comes out in the wash. When we pick up a bass to play it will all be there on full display: what we listened to, how much we have practiced, who we admired, how we studied, our limitations, and hopefully, who we are.
I'd rather meet someone with an instrument first than any other form introduction. You can tell more about a person by how they play than a thousand internet posts. Words fail all of us at some time or another.

As far as being thin-skinned, I know that is considered a negative trait, someone who is over-sensitive and takes offense at the slightest provocation. But I for one have been trying to cultivate and maintain a thin-skin when it comes to music as long as I can remember. When I pick up the bass I want all my senses to be heightened. I want to hear, feel and process what is going on around me as best as I humanly can. When I'm trying to get a sound out of the instrument or find a new sound it is as if all my nerves are hanging out exposed. I want to be able to get into the sound as much as possible, to understand it, to master it, to control it and then, use it for my own means. So dramatic right? Hahahaha. To me that is the goal. It doesn't mean I walk around crying all the time unable to live in a troubled insensitive world. Hahaha! To me it is what it means to be an artist. There is no shame in being thin-skinned. I contest that the most famously gruff musicians, say Charles Mingus, or Bill Monroe are incredibly thin-skinned at their core. They just found a way to use it in their favor.

So zero harm done. Welcome to the forum. There are a lot of different ideas floating around here. Take what you will. We are all bass players, that's enough for me to call these people, my people.

 

[Ed S]

I'd rather meet someone with an instrument first than any other form introduction. You can tell more about a person by how they play than a thousand internet posts. Words fail all of us at some time or another.

That's a cool idea. I have quite the history of serially falling in love with any number of mando pickers at first chop!

The converse is curious. I've developed immediate dislikes for some folk - most commonly guitarists, because of how they play. I'm sure they might be perfectly fine individuals in other respects, but... Last week at our weekly jam, one regular guitarist was absent. As a person, he really is a lovely human being. As a musician - well, the music was so much better without him!

 

[turf3]

That's a cool idea. I have quite the history of serially falling in love with any number of mando pickers at first chop!

The converse is curious. I've developed immediate dislikes for some folk - most commonly guitarists, because of how they play. I'm sure they might be perfectly fine individuals in other respects, but... Last week at our weekly jam, one regular guitarist was absent. As a person, he really is a lovely human being. As a musician - well, the music was so much better without him!

Don't forget my three nemeses:

- The guy who thinks it would go better with more percussion, brings a foot-operated tambourine, and insists on banging it on 1 and 3, and always slightly out of time;

- The guy who starts every tune on banjo with an introduction where he plays each note of his carefully prepared lick, but with no attention to timing, so it's absolutely impossible to detect what tempo the tune has;

- The guy who leads an obscure song no one's ever heard, but plays the chord changes differently every time through...

 

[Ed S]

Strange, I don't recall having seen you at the jams I frequent, because is sure sounds like we've been at the same ones!

 

[turf3]

It appears that many middle-aged banjo players have simply moved the bad habits of their youth as poor guitar players over to the banjo. No time, only knowing half the tune, lengthy complicated licks that they don't quite have down, so they slow down rather than playing fewer notes more quickly, and did I mention poor time?

Sorry dude, if you weren't very good as a guitar player, you're probably not going to magically be better on banjo. Get a metronome. Use it.

 

[Eli Brockway]

Yeah, options one and three are pretty bad, but that middle one is firing squad worthy.

 

[Don Hergert]

Banjos make a good target because they're loud and their voice cuts past any other instrument. I understand. With great power comes great responsibility, and a lot of banjo players just don't recognize that. But some do, and they're the players that everyone wants to play around.

Old news, if it's an open jam, you get what you get, and you either make the best of it or find another jam.

 

[Eli Brockway]

I'll extend it to guitars and mandolins too.

And bouzouki players.

Or in the jazz realm, among all of the ones to yell at, drummers included...

...Don't ask me to play a solo I don't practice near enough to remember melodies and vocab like I should.

 

[turf3]

Banjos make a good target because they're loud and their voice cuts past any other instrument. I understand. With great power comes great responsibility, and a lot of banjo players just don't recognize that. But some do, and they're the players that everyone wants to play around.

Old news, if it's an open jam, you get what you get, and you either make the best of it or find another jam.

Good banjo players are a treasure.

Unfortunately for some reason, especially in New England, in the last 20 years or so all the middle-aged guys who had a guitar in high school to try to attract chicks, are all now learning the Scruggs three finger roll on $5000 Gibson Master Tone banjos.

 

[Jeffon]

I don't participate in a lot of other forums, but my impression is that folk here are more respectful of each other than many if not most places online.

If you perceive folk as "thin-skinned", you might wish to consider the potential contributing impact of a relatively new participant characterizing others as "thin skinned", having their feelings hurt, and being "gatekeepers" within their first week of joining.

(If you think anything that happened in THIS thread reflects thin skin, perhaps I could suggest a topic or 2 for you! )

Ok. I will walk around on eggshells for a few more weeks/months /years before I can post an opinion again... reread my original post and see the response I got that led to my subsequent comments...

I suggested some new music in the style of old time but stated that it is not tradional or strictly old time music... I later tried to smooth out some of the roughness, based on responses defending the criticism of my suggestion. (Read this again and think - to yourself- if this was bad form for a new participant).

Guess I should kiss a** for awhile bc I am a "new participant " - I thought that was what I was doing with my last post!

 

[Don Hergert]

... $5000 Gibson Master Tone banjos ...

Well, the good thing is that Gibson is out of the banjo business since 2010.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Ok. I will walk around on eggshells for a few more weeks/months /years before I can post an opinion again... reread my original post and see the response I got that led to my subsequent comments...

I suggested some new music in the style of old time but stated that it is not tradional or strictly old time music... I later tried to smooth out some of the roughness, based on responses defending the criticism of my suggestion. (Read this again and think - to yourself- if this was bad form for a new participant).

Guess I should kiss a** for awhile bc I am a "new participant " - I thought that was what I was doing with my last post!

Nah, you’re fine! I think you’re taking all this too seriously. You said nothing wrong whatsoever.

 

[Jay Corwin]

My path to upright was reaching for jazz (that I play poorly). My path to gigging early on upright was old time, BG, folk, etc. I've played with purists, and the with the jam banders, and everything in between when it comes to people dipping into this area. Admittedly my initial interest in this genre came from hearing more contemporary people playing it. I worked backwards from there. I'm no purist myself, but I am a guy who tries to learn the right way, or feel of whatever I'm playing. Bass players have to be chameleons to some extent.

Where am I going with this? Well on the topic of the new versus the traditional, my own experience has been that a lot of reformed rock guitarists catch the bug to play in this world - but never really develop the feel. I've been in bands with a lot of them, some very good friends. You can always tell the difference just by feel, pocket. So it does become something different than the original. If it's fun though, who cares? Although I'm not going to say that it doesn't drive my nuts on occasion.

If you are playing with a bunch of purists, you better find their pocket and set yours to it though. You don't always get to lead, but you do get to learn.

And one last point - if you are a bass player that shows up to open jams, you'll end up with more gigs and jam invited than you'll know what to do with.

 

[Jeffon]

Right on... hatchet buried

Saw Bruce molksky and Alison de groot pick at a coffeehouse jam last summer after a festival gig the day before. Wow!! And Alison just won the Steve Martin banjo prize. Congrats !

 

[Jason Sypher]

My path to upright was reaching for jazz (that I play poorly). My path to gigging early on upright was old time, BG, folk, etc. I've played with purists, and the with the jam banders, and everything in between when it comes to people dipping into this area. Admittedly my initial interest in this genre came from hearing more contemporary people playing it. I worked backwards from there. I'm no purist myself, but I am a guy who tries to learn the right way, or feel of whatever I'm playing. Bass players have to be chameleons to some extent.

Where am I going with this? Well on the topic of the new versus the traditional, my own experience has been that a lot of reformed rock guitarists catch the bug to play in this world - but never really develop the feel. I've been in bands with a lot of them, some very good friends. You can always tell the difference just by feel, pocket. So it does become something different than the original. If it's fun though, who cares? Although I'm not going to say that it doesn't drive my nuts on occasion.

If you are playing with a bunch of purists, you better find their pocket and set yours to it though. You don't always get to lead, but you do get to learn.

And one last point - if you are a bass player that shows up to open jams, you'll end up with more gigs and jam invited than you'll know what to do with.

Perhaps another thread should explore this term purists. I totally know what you are saying and am not trying to twist your meanings or paint you into a corner or whatever. But the word purist gets bandied about quite a bit. I tend to think of the word often used to excuse players from committing to learning a genre. It takes a lot of work to learn a traditional music. To the uninitiated it often seems to be very easy to play but the devil is in the details and the details is where you find the heart of the music. When you really learn a music there will be markers that are easily identified by experienced players. Those markers tell people that you did the homework. There is a natural inclination to be suspicious of a new player showing up to a trad session. The first thing people want to know is, can you play. Are these people purists? I find they are usually not. Good players almost always have come to a music from many different places and appreciate good music of any genre. Scratch the surface of an oldtime player and you will find they know the chords to many different genres of music. But they are there to play oldtime music and so is everyone else in the session. They are not purists at all but are trying to keep the session Oldtime, or Irish, or Flamenco or whatever. The more beginner sessions will be more open to a new player coming in with a song or tune that is adjacent to the focus of the session, advanced players less so. Those advanced players often get labelled purists by people who don't understand what is happening. Sessions have their rituals and guidelines. Learn them before you start taking your instrument out to play Wonderwall or even a Hawktail tune. Don't go to an irish session and suggest a U2 song. Or a Van Morrison song, or even Danny Boy. You will get blank stares from the players. There is nothing wrong with how you find a music, we often find a new genre through the media, in a movie, on a playlist or whatever. These sources tend to be mainstream watered down versions of the traditional form. No worries. That's how most of us find trad music. That scene from Titanic. A lot of it boils down to your personality, your ability and your ability to read a room. Enter a session like a good photographer, seeing everything that's going on long before you are even noticed. Those people that can play are not purists. They have done the work. They seem to be playing effortlessly, finishing each others sentences, starting a tune with three notes before everyone jumps in as if led by an imaginary conductor. One might be inclined to just jump in with them since is sounds so easy. They have learned a language and they are speaking it fluently. If you want to be a part of that you need to start learning the language. Same goes for jazz or irish or blues or any traditional music. They may seem exclusive. They may seem unwelcoming. They may seem to be PURISTS! But they are not. They are people just like you who wandered in from the cold and got smitten by the magic that is learning to speak a musical language and then freely conversing with others who also know that language. And to be sure, these are not really common languages. They may share elements of other things but they are quite specific. If you meet them with humility and understand what is happening in front of you, you will not be spurned. You will be welcomed in based on your knowledge and understanding of the language, by how well you speak it. That makes sense doesn't it? It was a typically long winded response to a question that wasn't even asked, this is my specialty! Apologies for those who have much better things to do than listen to my mansplaining. But I think the word purist is one of those words we almost always use incorrectly, disparagingly even. There are actual purists to be sure but in my experience they are not the best players or the most interesting people. They found security in facts so you might not notice their rhythm is terrible. For the rest of them they are just good players who want to have a successful session at the pub.

 

[LEUllman]

You play what the guitarist plays or you come to an agreement. She likes the IV. I play the four.

^This. One of the joys/pains of playing oldtime for me is locking in to whatever the guitar player is doing (whether “right” or “wrong”), and matching it in real time. Similar to a drummer and bass guitar generating the pocket in a rock band. Of course, at bigger jams with more than one guitar (of various skill levels), things can get, um, interesting.

 

[AGCurry]

If it's fun though, who cares? Although I'm not going to say that it doesn't drive my nuts on occasion.

Where is it taking them?

 

[Don Hergert]

My wife was once asked how she knew what part to sing in a roots vocal situation. Sort of annoyed because vocal improv comes so naturally for her and she didn't know exactly how to answer, she innocently said "I just sing what no one else is singing." Sort of a marvelous response.

That can apply with instruments too.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Perhaps another thread should explore this term purists. I totally know what you are saying and am not trying to twist your meanings or paint you into a corner or whatever. But the word purist gets bandied about quite a bit. I tend to think of the word often used to excuse players from committing to learning a genre. It takes a lot of work to learn a traditional music. To the uninitiated it often seems to be very easy to play but the devil is in the details and the details is where you find the heart of the music. When you really learn a music there will be markers that are easily identified by experienced players. Those markers tell people that you did the homework. There is a natural inclination to be suspicious of a new player showing up to a trad session. The first thing people want to know is, can you play. Are these people purists? I find they are usually not. Good players almost always have come to a music from many different places and appreciate good music of any genre. Scratch the surface of an oldtime player and you will find they know the chords to many different genres of music. But they are there to play oldtime music and so is everyone else in the session. They are not purists at all but are trying to keep the session Oldtime, or Irish, or Flamenco or whatever. The more beginner sessions will be more open to a new player coming in with a song or tune that is adjacent to the focus of the session, advanced players less so. Those advanced players often get labelled purists by people who don't understand what is happening. Sessions have their rituals and guidelines. Learn them before you start taking your instrument out to play Wonderwall or even a Hawktail tune. Don't go to an irish session and suggest a U2 song. Or a Van Morrison song, or even Danny Boy. You will get blank stares from the players. There is nothing wrong with how you find a music, we often find a new genre through the media, in a movie, on a playlist or whatever. These sources tend to be mainstream watered down versions of the traditional form. No worries. That's how most of us find trad music. That scene from Titanic. A lot of it boils down to your personality, your ability and your ability to read a room. Enter a session like a good photographer, seeing everything that's going on long before you are even noticed. Those people that can play are not purists. They have done the work. They seem to be playing effortlessly, finishing each others sentences, starting a tune with three notes before everyone jumps in as if led by an imaginary conductor. One might be inclined to just jump in with them since is sounds so easy. They have learned a language and they are speaking it fluently. If you want to be a part of that you need to start learning the language. Same goes for jazz or irish or blues or any traditional music. They may seem exclusive. They may seem unwelcoming. They may seem to be PURISTS! But they are not. They are people just like you who wandered in from the cold and got smitten by the magic that is learning to speak a musical language and then freely conversing with others who also know that language. And to be sure, these are not really common languages. They may share elements of other things but they are quite specific. If you meet them with humility and understand what is happening in front of you, you will not be spurned. You will be welcomed in based on your knowledge and understanding of the language, by how well you speak it. That makes sense doesn't it? It was a typically long winded response to a question that wasn't even asked, this is my specialty! Apologies for those who have much better things to do than listen to my mansplaining. But I think the word purist is one of those words we almost always use incorrectly, disparagingly even. There are actual purists to be sure but in my experience they are not the best players or the most interesting people. They found security in facts so you might not notice their rhythm is terrible. For the rest of them they are just good players who want to have a successful session at the pub.

I think we are saying a lot of the same things. There's a lot to unpack there, but I'll give a try on a few points.

I tend to think of the word often used to excuse players from committing to learning a genre. Those markers tell people that you did the homework.

I agree 100%. This is line with my statement about playing with reformed rock musicians (of which I am one) who want to dabble into string bands (jazz too), but not really learn the language. Many of the guys I've played with fall into this category. While they may be very good at playing whatever they focused on during their formative years, the real learning stopped there. I've been known to be very hard on guitar players for this very reason when I ran my own band. They would probably refer to me as the purist for wanting to learn the songs the right way! Actually some of them would probably refer to me as much worse. Imagine having the bass player look at you and tell you your picking pattern is all wrong...or you're botching every turnaround! Like I can't tell that you just opened a chord chart and started banging it out!

But they are there to play oldtime music and so is everyone else in the session. They are not purists at all but are trying to keep the session Oldtime, or Irish, or Flamenco or whatever. The more beginner sessions will be more open to a new player coming in with a song or tune that is adjacent to the focus of the session, advanced players less so.

Expectations should be clear for any open jam IMO. Both to the hosts/regulars and the new comers. There are invites I've turned down because I knew the level of musicianship and expectations were out of my wheelhouse. Sometimes being an observer can be as valuable as participating.

And to be sure, these are not really common languages. They may share elements of other things but they are quite specific.

You'll find no argument out of me on this one. Irish and Bluegrass are the best examples I can give IME. Much of it feels the same on bass until you start hitting turn-arounds, tags, and...oh this weird part that only happens once! Obviously a much longer conversation to be had there, but you get the idea. You can well versed in one, and not be able to breeze through the other if you haven't been there before.

 

[Ed S]

But I think the word purist is one of those words we almost always use incorrectly, disparagingly even.

I thought a purist was someone who eschewed newfangled concepts such as paragraph breaks!