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Double Bass Omnidirectional or supercardioid for live

#3
If you need to be loud on stage, I don't know that there is any microphone that will provide that loudness without tempting feedback. That's why pickups were invented.
BUT ...
I am also a guitarist. Having tried many mics for my acoustic guitar, I have found that any directional mic, when placed close to the guitar, yielded boominess. That's the proximity effect. It's easily demonstrated with any directional mic by simply speaking into it from different distances. Omnidirectional mics don't have the proximity effect, so they can be placed an inch away from the source and still sound like that source. And, any off-axis weirdness doesn't happen, because ... there is no axis to be off of.
BUT ...
there's a tradeoff. You can indeed get more gain-before-feedback from a directional mic, because it's cancelling sound waves. Omnis don't cancel anything. So what's more important: Volume or tone? It's up to you.
ALSO ...
condenser microphones have a longer "reach" - they pick up sound waves from farther away than do moving-coil dynamics (ribbon microphones, which are another type of "dynamic," rival condensers in reach). Therefore, condensers are more prone to feedback. So MY choice, if I want to mic my instrument in a relatively-soft live setting, is an omnidirectional moving-coil microphone right up close on the instrument.

For recording, either a close-up omni or a directional from a distance, depending on the room and other circumstances. Many respected recording engineers will use omnis as their first choice.
 
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#4
Kristian said:
I've been thinking for some time about buying a super cardioid schoeps mic but I've just red some interesting stuff about Omnidirectional mics. Apparently, they don't have any proximity effect, sound more natural and can be used closer to the sound source, resulting in a "hotter" signal.
Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Kristian, You mentioned two things, 1. Proximity Effect, and 2. Hotter signal

I am using a Chuck Israels Signature Mic that was designed to not have a proximity effect, and, in fact, is designed to be placed right over the f hole where you get the hottest possible signal. This results in less bleed from other instruments since a Hot bass signal means you don't have to turn up the amplifier as high as you would to compensate for a signal that was not as hot.

Just yesterday I recorded a demo video of this mic which you can see here: Chuck Israels Mic - Revisited

If you have any other questions feel free to contact me. I have been very happy with this mic. Here is a link to a couple tunes I recorded with it going direct to the 'board':
 
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#5
Kristian said:
I've been thinking for some time about buying a super cardioid schoeps mic but I've just red some interesting stuff about Omnidirectional mics. Apparently, they don't have any proximity effect, sound more natural and can be used closer to the sound source, resulting in a "hotter" signal.
Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Schoeps mk2 omni sounds great, but using it for amping bass live is a no-go. Even the mk21 will be problematic unless it is a gentle lift and arco.
 
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#6
rickwolff said:
Kristian, You mentioned two things, 1. Proximity Effect, and 2. Hotter signal

I am using a Chuck Israels Signature Mic that was designed to not have a proximity effect, and, in fact, is designed to be placed right over the f hole where you get the hottest possible signal. This results in less bleed from other instruments since a Hot bass signal means you don't have to turn up the amplifier as high as you would to compensate for a signal that was not as hot.

Just yesterday I recorded a demo video of this mic which you can see here: Chuck Israels Mic - Revisited

If you have any other questions feel free to contact me. I have been very happy with this mic. Here is a link to a couple tunes I recorded with it going direct to the 'board':
Click to expand...

I doubt that it is designed to not have proximity effect, that is an unavoidable physics issue in a fig8. Probably an eq circuit. The prox effect means that as you increase distance the bass falls off, with zero proximity effect it would maintain equal bass in near and far fields, this is surely not the case if it is a fig8.
 
#7
wathaet said:
I doubt that it is designed to not have proximity effect, that is an unavoidable physics issue in a fig8. Probably an eq circuit. The prox effect means that as you increase distance the bass falls off, with zero proximity effect it would maintain equal bass in near and far fields, this is surely not the case if it is a fig8.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. Probably ''voiced" to have the desired frequency response when it is very close to the sound source.
 
#11
Co. said:
I know some guys, who think, figure eight mics work best in a live setting.
Never tryed it myself though.
Click to expand...

I have some figure-of-eight ribbons - AEA R84 and R44. They work great for bass at a distance; up close, way too much bass. The R44 is AEA's faithful replica of the huge RCA 44; it's an absolutely awesome mic for recording an entire band with just that one microphone.

For live playing at any significant volume, however, you will likely not get enough gain before feedback unless a) your speakers are positioned smack dab in the microphone's null spots, and b) there is negligible reflection from walls, floors, and ceilings. And if you're outside, you have to consider wind noise.
 
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#12
AGCurry said:
I have some figure-of-eight ribbons - AEA R84 and R44. They work great for bass at a distance; up close, way too much bass. The R44 is AEA's faithful replica of the huge RCA 44; it's an absolutely awesome mic for recording an entire band with just that one microphone.

For live playing at any significant volume, however, you will likely not get enough gain before feedback unless a) your speakers are positioned smack dab in the microphone's null spots, and b) there is negligible reflection from walls, floors, and ceilings. And if you're outside, you have to consider wind noise.
Click to expand...

As I understand, a figure eight mic pics up sound very good from front and back and not so good from the sides. So to get the amp directly into the mics most sensitive area, you'd have to position it either between the mic and the top of the bass (not very practical) or like a stage monitor in front of the bass, facing backwards (not in my world). Practically all unwanted signal is going to be picked up from the sides, so a figure eight mic might work pretty good. I have never tryed it myself, but I have heard a figure eight mic between the legs of the bridge live a couple of times with different players in different rooms and it did sound very good. Not boomy at all.
 
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#13
I wonder if the the Chuck Isreals is a typical omni construction or two figure 8 mics in one housing. There is a drawing on their homepage wich looks like that. Usually figure 8 mics have a strong proximity effect, there is maybe taken care of by the use of frequency filters. I think the seperation of this mic is superb, listen to this if you like:
To me it sounds a bit hollow, and I guess that might be more a result of the mic placement right in front of the f-hole than the mic it´s self. But that´s only guessing... sure a great mic, might not work on every bass.

Using my dpa was more and more annoying because of bleed. It´s sounds great, a bit too much low and high end, but that can easily be eq´d. But it picks up just everything happenig around it, yes your bass as well, but that is not something you really want to amplify that much. Maybe add a bit, but not as a a main sound source. On violins it is a completely different story, because a violin delivers a very strong signal. On a live recording I made with some dpa´s the violins are almost totally seperated, while my bass signal is spoiled a lot.

So putting a mic right in front of the treble f-hole to get the hottest possible signal is not a bad idea, if a mic can handle that boominess. I wonder how a Shure sm11 might sound on this spot! It´s a very small omni dynamic and has a poor bass response, so it might be able to handle that low end. As an omni there should be zero proximity effect. Since I also like the character of dynamics for upright in general, I´m afraid I need to try the sm11 some time.
 
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#14
I did some search in the forum, and of course some of us tried using an omni already. A really cheap tie clip mic was used, if you search for radioshack tie mic you will find, e.g. this one Micing with a bass amp
It seemed that an omni has to be inside the bass or at least right in front of the f hole to avoid feedback, and that this seems to work fine on some instruments, while others sound very unbalanced with an omni inside. As one might expect, too much low frequencies resonance especially on open strings can be a problem. But some people here were quite happy with a very natural and dry feedback resisant mic signal. I could not resist and ordered two completly different omni lavalier (tie clip) mics, one is a condenser with a really flat frequency response (Beyerdynamic TG L55), and one is a dynamic (the only lavalier dynamic on the market, a Shure sm 11) with an everything but flat frequency response, it should have weak bass and sound more midrangy. I hope I can tell you something useful withinh the next days. I expect to send both mics back, but if there is little hope to make this idea work, I just need to try.
 
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#16
Matthias Hacker said:
I did some search in the forum, and off course some of us tried using an omni already. A really cheap tie clip mic was used, if you search for radioshack tie mic you will find, e.g. this one Micing with a bass amp.
Click to expand...

I’m trying a cheap $30 omni tie clip mic too - an Audio Technica ATR3350iS wedged in an F hole using a piece of foam from my Full Circle. Sounds pretty good into my amp...not exactly hi-fi but it gets louder than any condenser i’ve tried. I’m going to have to try it on a gig. It comes with a handy adapter, so I made a quick recording on my phone.

A40BB4B2-B841-4102-9452-04AE85C30357.jpeg

 
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#17
I made some recordings with the Shure SM 11 dynamic lavalier mic. It seems to work just fine and doesn´t seem to pick up much weird resonances inside the bass. This mic is very sensitive to handling noise (typical for dynamics), so I had to figure out how to put it in the f hole without picking up much vibration from the top. I made a rol of thin foam around the cable, the diameter of the rol a bit bigger than the upper hole of the f hole and let the mic hang loose at the end of the rol inside the bass. A picture would explain that much better, but however, it can be done without much effort. The signal to bleed ratio is outstanding I´d say, I had Mr. Aebersold at a reasonable volume ("bleed test") and my bass facing the speakers. This mic sounds quite promising to me. Listening back to my recordings it maybe sounds best without any eq, which is a bit surprising if you take a look at the frequency diagram sheet published by Shure, weak bass and a fat peak at 8,5 khz.

I couldn´t try the Beyerdyn condenser until now, because they sent me the wrong phantom power adapter. The condenser might sound more studio like and shouldn´t have much problems with handling noise, but maybe picks up more unwanted resonances. I´m curious...
 

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#20
I finally could try out the Beyerdynamic condenser omni. I like it even better than the Shure dynamic omni, it doesn´t react much to handling noise, so it doesn´t need any kind of isolation from the top´s physical vibration. The sound doesn´t change that much when I change the mic position, so more or less I put it somewhere inside the bass with a piece of foam around the cable and I´m done. It weighs next to nothing (1gr). The frequency response is totally flat, for live use maybe a bit too much low end with my bass, but better to have it all there and dial out what is too much than beeing limited right in the beginning of the signal chain. The isolation of the pure bass signal is even better compared to the Shure. To answer to original question, omni or supercardioid, definitley omni, omni inside ;)

So here are two samples. Please take care with the "Bleed Test", DON´T RAISE THE VOLUME ON YOUR SPEAKERS, OTHERWISE THEY WILL BRAKE AT 0:45. In this sample I first have the mic placed right between my bass and the speaker, to have in impression of the volume balance. Than I mount the mic inside the bass (takes some seconds) and play again at 0:45. This is f...ing loud than, again please take care.
 

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