• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

OMW to get my rig.. Some doubts about it.

I remember a bunch of those posts on here like 8 years ago for those PF500's. There was a good deal of back and forth on if the 350 and 800 models were better or worse. Any of y'all got info on if the duds have effectively "failed out" by now and OP should be good to get one if it's currently still in working condition?
At the risk of being a negative vibe merchant,
I don’t like any of those heads you mentioned
I’m not the biggest fan of the fender rumble but I think they’re a great suggestion simply because of the performance to price ratio.
I think a Rumble 500 combo (or 800 if you want to spend $ for watts)would do a real good job and if you needed to push more air you could add an extension cab
like a rumble 115
That puts you into a very capable rig for around $1100 new
 
Last edited:
TC electronic BQ500. I love the fact that YouTube is full of good reviews about this one.
Ampeg PF-500 portaflex, Ampeg is a well know brand. Little review on YouTube.
Hartke lx5500. Also little review on YouTube but I kind of trust it because hartke is also a big brand.

What do you guys think about these three?

They are all OK. The Hartke is the least desirable of them. Hartke is not "a big brand", it's Sam Ash's private label house brand. But, they are usable. A local venue I've worked has a Hartke amp as backline. It's fine. Nothing special, but it gets the job done. I'd never buy a Hartke, but I wouldn't refuse to play through one, if that was all that was available.

the great majority of cabs of less than 400 watts are 8 ohms

That's because you are expected to use two of them.

" as a general rule, the amp should double the watts of the cab".

DANGEROUSLY FALSE.
 
Last edited:
Hartke is not "a big brand", it's Sam Ash's private label house brand.

I won't quibble about which amp to choose, but Hartke is not what I would call a small brand and it is available at many place besides Sam Ash...for example Sweetwater, Full Compass, Guitar Center, ZZSounds, etc.

The brand as been around for a long time and their 410s were pretty trendy back in the day. Pretty sure Will Lee's use of Hartke on the Late Show had something to do with it.

I played one of the original 410XLs early in my career and it had more clarity than a lot of other cabs at the time. I wouldn't have bought it myself, but I did choose it over available inventory in our supply section.
 
In general, if the amp is 4 ohms minimum, many people would choose an 8 ohm cab. This gives you the potential to build an expandable modular rig. Then, if you have a relatively quite gig, take one cab. Need to play louder, take both cabs.

If your amp makes the same power at 8 to 4 ohms, you get +3dB from adding the second (matching) cab.

If the amp doubles the power when you go from 8 to 4 ohms, you get +6dB from adding the matching cab.

Some amps make more power when the load is changed from 8 to 4 ohms, but they don't double the power. Under this circumstance you somewhere between +3dB and +6dB when you add a matching cab.

Now let's consider what happens when you trade an 8 ohm cab for a 4 ohm cab. The first thing to consider is can the cabs handle the full power of the amp. Some amps generate twice as much power at 4 ohms.

The second consideration is the sensitivity of the cabs. When companies make both 8 and 4 ohm variants of the same driver, it's not unusual for the 4 ohm version to be 1-2dB less efficient. Best case scenario is the amp makes twice as much power with the 4 ohm cab. Doubling the power is a +3dB change. However, if the 4 ohm cab is -2dB less efficient, you only net +1dB. 1dB is not generally consider statistically relevant, because it's hard reliably hear a 1dB change.

If the amp does not double the power, it's possible the 4 ohm cab will not play as loud as the 8 ohm cab.

My point...don't focus solely on power. The volume comes from useable power and the sensitivity of the speaker system you are using, so you need to consider both factors.

I don't recommend using an amp that is rated for twice as much power as the speaker. Speakers have different types of power ratings. The RMS power rating is essentially the thermal rating of the voice coil. In other words how much power the voice coil can handle long term without overheating. Program power is generally 2x the RMS rating. This is probably where the advice comes from. The advice is relatively safe for mid range frequencies but not frequencies below 100hz. Also, if the long term average power exceeds the RMS rating for two long, the voice coil will get burned.

In all honesty, the Program power rating is the max power the speaker is expected to be able to handle and survive. Some of the tests only require the driver to survive for about 2 hours, and the driver is not required to meet specs after the test. So for long term reliability, you probably don't want to slam a driver will it's full program rating.

Before I go further, when you are dealing with bass amp, you also need to be concerned with mechanical power handling, which is most relevant for frequencies below 100hz. Mechanical power handling is determined by how far the woofer can safely vibrate without being damaged. The amount the driver moves is determined by how the cab is tuned. My point is if you put the same driver in different cab designs, the mechanical power handling will vary from one cab design to the next.

It's not unusual for the mechanical power handling to be significantly lower than the driver's RMS rating. In other words you can damage the drive with less than the RMS rating. Using an amp that can produce 2X the speaker's RMS power rating makes the risk of damage much more likely.

AFAIK, the reason for RMS, Program, and Peak power ratings is because speakers are rated with a 6db crest factor. Crest factor is the ratio between the peak value of a waveform and the RMS value. So many companies will post a RMS power rating (long term average in RMS Watts), Program Power (short term average in RMS Watts and 2X the RMS rating), and Peak Power (instantaneous power in Peak Watts).

You might see something like Power Rating: 200W RMS, 400W Program, 800W Peak.

The tricky part is the relationship between the Peak rating and the RMS and Program ratings. Peak power is measured in peak volts and peak Watts. RMS and Program power are measure in RMS volts and RMS Watts.

Notice the peak power rating appears to be 4x the RMS rating and 2x the Program rating. But if you do the math, the Peak power is exactly the same amount of power as Program power.

Here is our Power Rating: 200W RMS, 400W Program (RMS), 800W Peak.

Let's convert the Peak value to the equivalent RMS value.

We need to know the impedance to determine power. So assume these rating are at 4 ohms. Let's find the peak Voltage rating for 800Wp at 4 ohms.

Voltage = sq rt(power x impedance)
Voltage = sq rt (800 x 4) = ~56.57Vp.
Now we will convert this to the RMS voltage value.

~56.57Vp/(sq rt of 2) = 40V RMS
The salient point I want you to see is 40V RMS = ~56.57Vp...it's the same value using different measurement units.

Now we determine how much power is dissipated at 4 ohms with 40V RMS applied.
Power = (Volts^2)/Impedance
Power = (40^2)/4 = 400W RMS
This shows that 400W RMS is the same as 800Wp
400W RMS = 800Wp

Remember I mentioned a 6dB crest factor is used to test speakers.

- 200W RMS to 400W Program RMS is 3dB
- 400W Program RMS to 800Wp is 3dB.
- So the RMS to Peak crest factor 3 + 3 = 6dB.

But the 3dB difference from Program to Peak power is really a conversion of measurement units rather than an actual change.

Hopefully this will make it a bit more clear.

A pure sine wave has a 3dB crest factor.
View attachment 5131733

The RMS voltage is ~0.707V and the peak voltage is 1V

RMS Watts at ~0.707V RMS and 4 ohms.
(~0.707^2) x 4 = 2W

Peak Watts at 1Vp and 4 ohms
(1^2) x 4 = 4Wp

So if you measure the RMS value, you get the blue line and if you measure the peak value you the red line.
View attachment 5131741
The waveform does not change only the units of measure.

- So 2W RMS to 4Wp is a 3 dB crest factor
- However, 2W RMS = 4Wp
Yes it blows my mind too.

My advice. Disregard the Program rating and Peak rating. An amp rated for about the same as the speaker's RMS rating is relatively safe...but you still may have enough power to destroy the drivers if you push the rig hard enough.

In other words if you get an amp rated for 400W RMS, you need a speaker rated for at least 400W RMS.

You can certainly use an 800W RMS amp with a 400W RMS speaker...but you have to use more discretion and restraint. Often speakers sound great right up to the point where the go silent. Meaning you can't always tell you are pushing a speaker too hard.
I have no words to thank you for this answer bro. :hyper:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wasnex
I owned a PF-500, one made *after* all the shut down problems were supposedly fixed. It sounds amazing, however it shut down on every single gig I took it to (3), whenever I used a dirt pedal. They really don’t like having their preamp pushed at all, so I cannot recommend one.

What’s wrong with the Tone Hammers you were looking at?
 
I owned a PF-500, one made *after* all the shut down problems were supposedly fixed. It sounds amazing, however it shut down on every single gig I took it to (3), whenever I used a dirt pedal. They really don’t like having their preamp pushed at all, so I cannot recommend one.

What’s wrong with the Tone Hammers you were looking at?
It exceeds my budget
 
In general, if the amp is 4 ohms minimum, many people would choose an 8 ohm cab. This gives you the potential to build an expandable modular rig. Then, if you have a relatively quite gig, take one cab. Need to play louder, take both cabs.

If your amp makes the same power at 8 to 4 ohms, you get +3dB from adding the second (matching) cab.

If the amp doubles the power when you go from 8 to 4 ohms, you get +6dB from adding the matching cab.

Some amps make more power when the load is changed from 8 to 4 ohms, but they don't double the power. Under this circumstance you somewhere between +3dB and +6dB when you add a matching cab.

Now let's consider what happens when you trade an 8 ohm cab for a 4 ohm cab. The first thing to consider is can the cabs handle the full power of the amp. Some amps generate twice as much power at 4 ohms.

The second consideration is the sensitivity of the cabs. When companies make both 8 and 4 ohm variants of the same driver, it's not unusual for the 4 ohm version to be 1-2dB less efficient. Best case scenario is the amp makes twice as much power with the 4 ohm cab. Doubling the power is a +3dB change. However, if the 4 ohm cab is -2dB less efficient, you only net +1dB. 1dB is not generally consider statistically relevant, because it's hard reliably hear a 1dB change.

If the amp does not double the power, it's possible the 4 ohm cab will not play as loud as the 8 ohm cab.

My point...don't focus solely on power. The volume comes from useable power and the sensitivity of the speaker system you are using, so you need to consider both factors.

I don't recommend using an amp that is rated for twice as much power as the speaker. Speakers have different types of power ratings. The RMS power rating is essentially the thermal rating of the voice coil. In other words how much power the voice coil can handle long term without overheating. Program power is generally 2x the RMS rating. This is probably where the advice comes from. The advice is relatively safe for mid range frequencies but not frequencies below 100hz. Also, if the long term average power exceeds the RMS rating for two long, the voice coil will get burned.

In all honesty, the Program power rating is the max power the speaker is expected to be able to handle and survive. Some of the tests only require the driver to survive for about 2 hours, and the driver is not required to meet specs after the test. So for long term reliability, you probably don't want to slam a driver will it's full program rating.

Before I go further, when you are dealing with bass amp, you also need to be concerned with mechanical power handling, which is most relevant for frequencies below 100hz. Mechanical power handling is determined by how far the woofer can safely vibrate without being damaged. The amount the driver moves is determined by how the cab is tuned. My point is if you put the same driver in different cab designs, the mechanical power handling will vary from one cab design to the next.

It's not unusual for the mechanical power handling to be significantly lower than the driver's RMS rating. In other words you can damage the drive with less than the RMS rating. Using an amp that can produce 2X the speaker's RMS power rating makes the risk of damage much more likely.

AFAIK, the reason for RMS, Program, and Peak power ratings is because speakers are rated with a 6db crest factor. Crest factor is the ratio between the peak value of a waveform and the RMS value. So many companies will post a RMS power rating (long term average in RMS Watts), Program Power (short term average in RMS Watts and 2X the RMS rating), and Peak Power (instantaneous power in Peak Watts).

You might see something like Power Rating: 200W RMS, 400W Program, 800W Peak.

The tricky part is the relationship between the Peak rating and the RMS and Program ratings. Peak power is measured in peak volts and peak Watts. RMS and Program power are measure in RMS volts and RMS Watts.

Notice the peak power rating appears to be 4x the RMS rating and 2x the Program rating. But if you do the math, the Peak power is exactly the same amount of power as Program power.

Here is our Power Rating: 200W RMS, 400W Program (RMS), 800W Peak.

Let's convert the Peak value to the equivalent RMS value.

We need to know the impedance to determine power. So assume these rating are at 4 ohms. Let's find the peak Voltage rating for 800Wp at 4 ohms.

Voltage = sq rt(power x impedance)
Voltage = sq rt (800 x 4) = ~56.57Vp.
Now we will convert this to the RMS voltage value.

~56.57Vp/(sq rt of 2) = 40V RMS
The salient point I want you to see is 40V RMS = ~56.57Vp...it's the same value using different measurement units.

Now we determine how much power is dissipated at 4 ohms with 40V RMS applied.
Power = (Volts^2)/Impedance
Power = (40^2)/4 = 400W RMS
This shows that 400W RMS is the same as 800Wp
400W RMS = 800Wp

Remember I mentioned a 6dB crest factor is used to test speakers.

- 200W RMS to 400W Program RMS is 3dB
- 400W Program RMS to 800Wp is 3dB.
- So the RMS to Peak crest factor 3 + 3 = 6dB.

But the 3dB difference from Program to Peak power is really a conversion of measurement units rather than an actual change.

Hopefully this will make it a bit more clear.

A pure sine wave has a 3dB crest factor.
View attachment 5131733

The RMS voltage is ~0.707V and the peak voltage is 1V

RMS Watts at ~0.707V RMS and 4 ohms.
(~0.707^2) x 4 = 2W

Peak Watts at 1Vp and 4 ohms
(1^2) x 4 = 4Wp

So if you measure the RMS value, you get the blue line and if you measure the peak value you the red line.
View attachment 5131741
The waveform does not change only the units of measure.

- So 2W RMS to 4Wp is a 3 dB crest factor
- However, 2W RMS = 4Wp
Yes it blows my mind too.

My advice. Disregard the Program rating and Peak rating. An amp rated for about the same as the speaker's RMS rating is relatively safe...but you still may have enough power to destroy the drivers if you push the rig hard enough.

In other words if you get an amp rated for 400W RMS, you need a speaker rated for at least 400W RMS.

You can certainly use an 800W RMS amp with a 400W RMS speaker...but you have to use more discretion and restraint. Often speakers sound great right up to the point where the go silent. Meaning you can't always tell you are pushing a speaker too hard.


Although I believe I demonstrated the proper relationship between Peak and RMS power I used the wrong formula.

I used
upload_2023-7-22_19-47-22.png
(not the formula) :facepalm::bag:

The correct formula is
upload_2023-7-22_19-48-15.png
 
Avoid the TC Electronic BQ500!! Run fast! Good reviews huh? Pros: Amp is cheap and loud/ Cons: Amp is lifeless. Not sure what kind of eq is built in but it didn't work for me. Zero treble/high end. At least this was MY experience.

I was watching a video of Nathan East when something made me remember this comment:

Screen Shot 2023-08-07 at 6.40.02 AM.png


I dont think that this level of professional use a bad quality amp or cab . Just saying. But always thankful for the advise !!
 
Hartke is not "a big brand", it's Sam Ash's private label house brand.

Sam Ash and Hartke have a close business relationship (see the Hartke Bass Lounge at Sam Ash's flagship location) and they may serve as a major distributor of Hartke products, but Hartke is not a "house brand" for Sam Ash. If they were, then you wouldn't see distribution at other major retailers.

I'd also argue that they're definitely in the top 3-to-5 of bass amp manufacturers based on distribution and availability (at least in the US). Victor Wooten's name alone is enough to move a ton of Hartke merchandise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amper
Whoever told you the amp should be twice the power as the cab is a moron and/or hates you. That is absolutely terrible advice. If you could have a 10,000W wall of 8x10s, assuming the impedance was within the right range, you could run that just fine with a 1W amp.

What you really want is the opposite, with the cab being rated twice the power of the amp. That way you are FAR less likely to overpower the cab when things inevitably get "enthusiastic" at a gig or jam. The good news on that is in the case of an 8 ohm cab and 4 ohm amp, if they have the same RMS rating, you should be in good shape, because typically the amp will have somewhere between 50-100% more power at 4 ohm than at 8 (ie 300W at 8 and 500 at 4 or something like that)(for solid state amps that is).

So get the highest power handling cab you can, and if you have a 300-500W amp, you are likely to be fine in most cases, and a 500-1000W should be plenty for everything but very large gigs. The other thing is more cab gets you a lot more mileage than more wattage. Lots of wattage with minimal cab is like having a Ferrari but being stuck in a traffic jam. More cab is like adding lanes to the highway.

Anyway, none of those are that inspiring. TC flat out lies about their power ratings though. I own the little BAM200 and that one is supposedly accurate, but I got that for 100 bucks just as an extra/backup because it was so cheap. The RH series could be interesting if they paired it with a different power section.

The Ampeg is "fine" but I found that series extremely uninspiring. Just kind of a lifeless EQ.

The Hartke I haven't tried but it wouldn't be my first choice.

But that brings me to...

Hartke is not "a big brand", it's Sam Ash's private label house brand.

This is demonstrably false. Larry Hartke (who happens to work with Sam Ash these days as far as I'm aware) started the company 40+ years ago, and they are sold through a variety of outlets. "House brand" by definition implies exclusivity (ie why you wouldn't find Realistic speakers at Best Buy and you wouldn't find an Insignia TV at Radio Shack).

Now, they may not be as good as they used to be, but that's a separate issue. I was kind of eyeing the TX600 as a light/portable option a few years ago, as they're very affordable and had a lot of features, but I ended up expanding my budget to get a Genz ShuttleMax 9.2. And I had a 3500 and 4.5XL half stack for a while that was pretty good. Actually, the 4.5XL was a damn good sounding cabinet but it was pretty heavy and I ended up selling the head and then the cab and basically doubling my money because I had gotten some other gear in the mean time that was more what I was after. I mainly bought the Hartke stuff because it appeared and was crazy cheap.
 
Sam Ash and Hartke have a close business relationship (see the Hartke Bass Lounge at Sam Ash's flagship location) and they may serve as a major distributor of Hartke products, but Hartke is not a "house brand" for Sam Ash. If they were, then you wouldn't see distribution at other major retailers.

I'd also argue that they're definitely in the top 3-to-5 of bass amp manufacturers based on distribution and availability (at least in the US). Victor Wooten's name alone is enough to move a ton of Hartke merchandise.

Ah, OK, that makes sense. I see why I thought so, now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wasnex