Double Bass On community orchestras..

[Andy Mopley]

How do you feel when professional players join community orchestras, as members of a section more so than soloists? An example may be of a DB jazz player that wants to join to sharpen their arco skills.
Something inside of me says that this is not in the "spirit" of community orchestras - where the emphasis "is" on non professional players - but I am open to be corrected on this. For the many amateur music-makers turning up to rehearsals, week after week, after a hard day at the office, it’s not a question of why. It’s an essential part of our life.

With [professional] musicians, it becomes a job at the end of the day.
Semantics? Perhaps so.

Thanks for reading!

 

[basscleff94010]

Wow, that is an interesting question. I am a "late starter" amateur, whose primary musical outlet is a community orchestra. I am thrilled to be able to play with a large ensemble and, yes, it is something I look forward too, even after a long day. And, for the orchestra I play in, about half the bass players are professional jazz musicians who want to keep their orchestral skills. I don't think of the other bassists as intruders. On the contrary, most of them play well, at least for intonation and rhythm. So they contribute to the confidence of all the players.
There two areas where they are not so helpful: bowings and dynamics. I have noticed that these musicians can't be bothered with following a shared bowing pattern. They often play the same pattern a different way each time they play it. This means its impossible for the section to create the kind of musical textures you get with section using common bowing.
Also, I have noticed the professional jazz players have only one dynamic range....loud! Its very hard to get the section to play very softly.
The pros should be the section leaders because of their strong basis skills. However, their indifference about bowing and dynamics precludes their leadership role.
When I raise bowing and dynamics issues, these players tell me "its not really important" and "don't take it so seriously". And I think that summarizes my feelings: they just don't take the orchestra as seriously as I do.
I am sure everyone's experience is unique and mine is the result of this particular orchestra.
However, it is an interesting question of how to integrate these differing attitudes.

 

[Cyoder]

As someone who seriously studies and is attempting a career at playing bass, I don't see a problem with it. I like to play in community orchestras because it's just plain fun. I don't have to worry about how much I am getting paid, it's not as stressful when it comes to making mistakes, and it's fun meeting people who don't take it as seriously as I do. It's a different way of approaching playing music and as I said, it's just fun. I even prefer sitting at the end of a section in a community orchestra because it's less work for me and to have someone who doesn't take it so seriously play principal and in front of me helps me not take it so seriously and it helps reaffirm that music is just music and it should be fun, and anyone who plays an instrument, whether they are professional or not, should be allowed, and encouraged to have fun.

 

[basscleff94010]

As someone who seriously studies and is attempting a career at playing bass, I don't see a problem with it. I like to play in community orchestras because it's just plain fun. I don't have to worry about how much I am getting paid, it's not as stressful when it comes to making mistakes, and it's fun meeting people who don't take it as seriously as I do. It's a different way of approaching playing music and as I said, it's just fun. I even prefer sitting at the end of a section in a community orchestra because it's less work for me and to have someone who doesn't take it so seriously play principal and in front of me helps me not take it so seriously and it helps reaffirm that music is just music and it should be fun, and anyone who plays an instrument, whether they are professional or not, should be allowed, and encouraged to have fun.

I agree that its should be "fun". For some people, including me, fun can be the result of serious work. In fact, I have more fun, when I am part of something that sounds prettier. And being casual about something, is doesn't mean that the activity is fun. Just a different perspective.

 

[PaulCannon]

I worked as a "ringer" all the way through college. It's a mixed bag.

Generally, the main point is just to fill out the section for balance issues. I don't recall ever getting called for a community orchestra that already had more than five basses.

I usually would only come for the last one or two rehearsals, and would get paid a reasonable scale for the work. For me, it really was just another gig. In fact, it was a gig where I could play to my lowest standards and nobody would even know or care. That's not to say I couldn't have a good time or enjoy the people I played with, but it wasn't something I'd want to do for free. Of course, I'd feel very differently if my day job was anything other than playing music with professional musicians.

Sometimes people were happy to have someone to come in and provide whatever it was I could offer. Sometimes people, usually section leaders, would take an ego trip I'd have to deal with. Either they'd seat me next to them and complain about everything the conductor, orchestra and/or their section would do, or they'd put me in the back and make it clear it wasn't their idea to invite me.

No matter what, it was always a little uncomfortable. I knew I was there for very different reasons (a pay check) than what the orchestra was meant for (essentially, having a good time with friends), but that's business. I wasn't there to educate, socialize, or lead the section in any way (except this one time, which is a long and absurd story), just make the basses sound louder.

 

[Andy Mopley]

"(expect this one time, which is a long and absurd story)," - do tell , Paul!

 

[MikeCanada]

The community orchestras I have played with both in high school as a community player, and now as a "pro" have typically been made up of a combination of paid players and community members. From what I have seen it is pretty common for the string principals to be paid professionals even if the fee per service isn't at local scale, and then the orchestra will bring in players as needed to fill out sections. I have been one of those fill out the section players in a few orchestras, and typically something such as second bassoon or harp or some of the not so common instruments get called in.

Although the above serves as a bit of a disclaimer to my personal bias, I don't see a problem with it. If the pro knows the music, sits where they are asked, doesn't make dramatic changes, and/or throw an ego trip, they can be the difference between a scary concert and a great one. This can either be because of balance issues, or a helping hand on some of the more tricky passages. I grew a lot as a bass player sitting between the hired principal and a recent McGill grad when I was in high school and it is very beneficial to play with more experienced players, especially when they are encouraging and supportive. I think the community players should have first chance at everything and wouldn't agree with bumping the entire wind section for a hired section, but if you only have 3 horns and it calls for 4, hiring one makes sense.

Jazz players, or other "pros" that are working on one of their doubling instruments can be handled case by case. Ego can be an issue and I really don't think it should be tolerated. If they are there to learn, develop/keep up their chops, and have fun, then they should be considered on a level playing field with everyone else regardless of what they do for their day job. These players or the hired pros mentioned earlier can be a big asset, or they can be far more trouble than they are worth. Some of them on the other hand are fantastic. I coach/play with a youth orchestra that has a pro sax player working on his clarinet doubling who is a pretty strong player, very encouraging to the students, has his ego in check, and is great to work with. Everybody wins in that situation, and it would be fantastic if that was always the case.

 

[Mike Goodbar]

In my area, the dynamic has changed greatly. 35 years ago, I was enlisted as Principal of my local community orchestra at age 19(!), and looking back I could barely play, much less lead a section. But it was understood that the entire orchestra was made up of amateurs, with a couple of ringers in the wind section and for concertmaster. I think the payment for an entire rehearsal cycle was $60. I quit the orchestra when I got married and started having kids, and I learned through the grapevine soon after that a new brash young conductor came in, fired many of the long-time members and replaced them with pros and semi-pros from neighboring bigger cities. I'm sure I would not have survived the bloodbath.

Fast forward 20 years, and I weaseled my way back into orchestra playing, and found myself in sections of no less than four area community orchestras. Interesting to see that the same core of pro musicians are playing in all the orchestras... the same fellow plays principal bass in all four. I've had to really step up my game, and I still find myself further back in the section each year as new Master-degreed players enter the pool. No complaints! They play better than I do and deserve the rankings. But the "community vibe" is really no longer there, except in the yearly marketing brochures.

 

[MikeCanada]

Fast forward 20 years, and I weaseled my way back into orchestra playing, and found myself in sections of no less than four area community orchestras. Interesting to see that the same core of pro musicians are playing in all the orchestras... the same fellow plays principal bass in all four. I've had to really step up my game, and I still find myself further back in the section each year as new Master-degreed players enter the pool. No complaints! They play better than I do and deserve the rankings. But the "community vibe" is really no longer there, except in the yearly marketing brochures.

I see this happening a lot as well, and I think it is a sign that we are either rapidly approaching or have already reached a saturation point of professional bassists. As more and more great players graduate they aren't finding work so many of them are looking for somewhere to keep their chops up. This can be great for the community orchestras, but not so great for the players who are in debt up to their eyeballs from student loans and often instrument/bow purchases. If nothing else music school graduates who don't end up working as players typically become audience members which can help orchestras stay afloat, but it's scary to see just how great some of the community orchestra sections are because of the number of players that can't find somewhere else to work/play.

 

[Andy Mopley]

I see this happening a lot as well, and I think it is a sign that we are either rapidly approaching or have already reached a saturation point of professional bassists. As more and more great players graduate they aren't finding work so many of them are looking for somewhere to keep their chops up. This can be great for the community orchestras, but not so great for the players who are in debt up to their eyeballs from student loans and often instrument/bow purchases. If nothing else music school graduates who don't end up working as players typically become audience members which can help orchestras stay afloat, but it's scary to see just how great some of the community orchestra sections are because of the number of players that can't find somewhere else to work/play.

That is scary, indeed Mike - the flip side, though, is that the "amateur" is in turn pushed out by the better player, hence even we are at some peril - albeit not at the same financial example you have used.
We could be staring at a very good community orchestra which is either an airport lounge for professional musicians OR a community orchestra of mainly professional players, hence a "quasi" professional orchestra -could this spell the end of community orchestras as we once knew them, also considering competition, cost, players availability and so on? OR an ever dimishing number of music students. Dark thoughts for the weekend just around the corner!!

 

[PaulCannon]

I see this happening a lot as well, and I think it is a sign that we are either rapidly approaching or have already reached a saturation point of professional bassists. As more and more great players graduate they aren't finding work so many of them are looking for somewhere to keep their chops up.

That is scary, indeed Mike - the flip side, though, is that the "amateur" is in turn pushed out by the better player, hence even we are at some peril - albeit not at the same financial example you have used.

This is more or less the situation in the community orchestra I played with in high school. After I left, their music director has been taking gradual steps towards something approaching a small time regional orchestra. The weakest players were asked to leave as better players with music degrees become available to replace them. I haven't heard them play since this all started, but everybody says the orchestra is much better now and continues improving. I don't know if they've reached a point where the musicians are being paid appropriately, but if not I'd imagine that's the next step.

Meanwhile, the real amateurs and hobbyists of the group were left looking for something else to do. At some point, the local community college noticed there was more than a full orchestra's worth of amateurs in town with nowhere to go. The CC formed their own orchestra, which is actually much closer to the community orchestra idea, and the two groups manage to fit in the same small city.

This is a totally positive thing. Many of the professional orchestras in the US began as community projects and slowly developed to their current states. If a community orchestra today can improve itself to a point where it can pay its players, then there's more work for the professionals and a healthier musical life for the region.

 

[Andy Mopley]

This is more or less the situation in the community orchestra I played with in high school. After I left, their music director has been taking gradual steps towards something approaching a small time regional orchestra. The weakest players were asked to leave as better players with music degrees become available to replace them. I haven't heard them play since this all started, but everybody says the orchestra is much better now and continues improving. I don't know if they've reached a point where the musicians are being paid appropriately, but if not I'd imagine that's the next step.

Meanwhile, the real amateurs and hobbyists of the group were left looking for something else to do. At some point, the local community college noticed there was more than a full orchestra's worth of amateurs in town with nowhere to go. The CC formed their own orchestra, which is actually much closer to the community orchestra idea, and the two groups manage to fit in the same small city.

This is a totally positive thing. Many of the professional orchestras in the US began as community projects and slowly developed to their current states. If a community orchestra today can improve itself to a point where it can pay its players, then there's more work for the professionals and a healthier musical life for the region.

Great story, Paul!

On a slight tangent, and to your last (financial) point specifically...Should community orchestras sometimes be mindful that it is as much about the music as it is about bums on seats? I face an uphill battle every time I mention playing something slightly different to the standard orchestral repertoire... Like a Gershwin or Boston Pops type thing, just to get the younger set thru the door...

 

[PaulCannon]

Should community orchestras sometimes be mindful that it is as much about the music as it is about bums on seats? I face an uphill battle every time I mention playing something slightly different to the standard orchestral repertoire... Like a Gershwin or Boston Pops type thing, just to get the younger set thru the door...

I can't say I know too many young people who really love Gershwin, or even know who that is. They might have some interest in film soundtracks or video game music, but I never understood how playing that stuff translates into people wanting to hear Bach or Schubert.

Like anything else where ticket sales are your main income, you have to know your audience. Even better, you need to know your potential audience. What about the freaks and weirdos that want to hear Ligeti and Stocklhausen? What about the totally normal people who have never heard of Ligeti and Stockhausen but would enjoy it in the right context? But that's another topic.

To me, the point of a community orchestra is no different than a community theater or town parade. The core audience is made up of family members and friends of the musicians, and they're that much more excited for it. Some of the best audience responses I've ever had were at otherwise terrible concerts where people were just cheering like crazy for their uncles and school teachers. Since the economics of running a community orchestra is relatively straight-forward, I don't know that you have to worry about programming so much.

 

[Mark_T]

Seems like most amateur orchestras that I've played for are hard-pressed to fill out their bass sections. As a pretty solid amateur, I've enjoyed having talented quasi- or para- professionals to play along side - I learn from them while getting to be in a nice, strong section. In a few cases, I've gotten to share a stand with my regular teacher for several rehearsals and a performance, and that's been a great experience. We work on hard bits during lessons, and then we get some time to just play the rep together and let all that hard work sink in.

 

[rickwolff]

\ Some of the best audience responses I've ever had were at otherwise terrible concerts where people were just cheering like crazy for their uncles and school teachers.

Last year I played with RTOOT, the 'Really Terrible Orchestra Of the Triangle (Raleigh Durham, Chapel Hill). I don't believe there is anyone who gets paid (possibly the conductors - and I wouldn't begrudge them that). As you might guess from the name, this is an orchestra that is 'just for fun', and yet we do try, through rehearsing, to play as well as we can. I am a 'pro' jazz player there to hopefully recover some of my long lost orchestra chops and to enjoy playing the repetoire. I am cutting and pasting a review of our last concert - this review is an absolute riot and totally in keeping with the spirit of our orchestra.

Contrary to Predictions, RTOOT Does Not Permanently Besmirch Cary Arts Center

EVENT INFORMATION


Cary -- ( Mon., May. 18, 2015 )

(919) 469-4069
$9 -- Cary Arts Center , (919) 469-4069;[email protected],RTOOT | The Really Terrible Orchestra of the Triangle -- 7:30 PM






By Invalid Link Removed




May 18, 2015 - Cary, NC:



The doomsayers got it wrong yet again with their dire predictions. The Invalid Link Removed is going to be just fine, management assures us, after a thorough airing out. That action should be adequate to overcome the ravages of an appearance there by the Really Terrible Orchestra of the Triangle.

This group, sneeringly but lovingly referred to as RTOOT, used up an entire Monday evening for a goodly crowd of (former?) music lovers, honorable citizens who sat through the program "Folk Songs and Fairy Tales." In an unscientific survey of attendees, almost everyone thought there actually were music organizations inferior to RTOOT. But no one was able to come up with a specific example.

Conductor (and chief suspect) Sandy Hobgood led off with a version of Gounod's "Funeral March of a Marionette." One could dimly discern the profile silhouette of Alfred Hitchcock passing along the backdrop. Some fifty players are involved here, with their names actually listed, probably pseudonyms. Hobgood"s abettor, Bob Petters, came on to conduct the Prelude from Humperdinck's Hansel and Gretel. There was some confusion on the podium as to whether it would be this piece or "Night on Bald Mountain." It sounded more like Hansel and Gretel, so let’s go with that. The first half ended with the March from The Love of Three Oranges by Prokofiev, about which not much needs to be said.

Petters came back after intermission to lead the aforementioned "Night on Bald Mountain," a sonic marvel by Mussorgsky, with a boost from Rimsky-Korsakov. Here was music at times bordering on the genuinely respectable. Did they sneak in a few non-credited guest musicians during the break? The forte sections and some of the woodwind passages were quite recognizable, even admirable, and distinctly different from the earlier piece involving Hansel and Gretel.

Speaking of respectable, what about that English Folksong Suite of Vaughan Williams? The players performed as if they had actually seen those three sections before. One could listen to the two Marches and the Intermezzo in relative bliss and contentment.

The "Summertime Singalong" brought on – surprise – "Summertime" and "A Summer Place." The audience participation here did not enhance the evening. They came on strong, though, as they intoned "Take Me Out to the Ball Game."

The orchestra presented an encore that constituted a transparent ploy devised to elicit audience applause. Petters led the "Radetzky March" by Johann Strauss the Elder. Here the audience provided most of the percussion by clapping in time as directed by the conductor. Such deviousness fooled no one.

By some alchemy these players and their leaders were able to persuade the attendees that they actually enjoyed themselves. Was the standing ovation just a ruse to gain early access to the exits?

 

[SeaMist_au]

Love of Three Oranges.......we have that one now. The first time we played it in public you should have seen the audience reaction.......judging by the open mouths and stunned silence at the end we must have been amazing........

 

[Andy Mopley]

Love of Three Oranges.......we have that one now. The first time we played it in public you should have seen the audience reaction.......judging by the open mouths and stunned silence at the end we must have been amazing........

Which leads to me to the next question, then - how do you know how "good" your performance has been?

 

[SeaMist_au]

For rehearsals I actually record the performance on my little zoom recorder so you definitely know there. Other than that you can tell if the orchestra is having a train wreck. As a bassist I am always listening for 'the groove' ( even in an orchestra) as the bass is 'meant' to be the tonal foundation on which the rest of the orchestra sits. With 'Oranges' the tonal cadence is strange enough already so if you add the chaos only a community orchestra can provide it becomes a very interesting study in syncopation and atonal melodies.
Our performances are always better than rehearsals but if you are thinking ' Guys, I can't even tell where you are' then the orchestra is having a very bad day. Or when the conductor is waving their arms but there doesn't seem to be any related activity ( like the rehearsal this week) you know there are issues lol.
Somehow for actual performances we actually come together well somehow. But not always lol. See 'Love of Three Oranges', which I have nicknamed The Fruitbowl'.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Sea_mist, what I meant is does your conductor give you feedback at the end of the concert (or soon after). can you tell if the audience is eager for more, you know, I am talking about the "product" more so than "the makers"...

 

[SeaMist_au]

Of course he give us feedback, with a great deal of diplomacy I might add. If it's not up to scratch he will say so, if it's getting there he will say so and if it goes really well he will say that as well although sometimes I wonder if he is tone deaf, but I suspect he is just showing the patience and tact he is renowned for. He never names names but he will say that 'x' section is 'exposed' in a particular piece if they are not going well. Our audiences are usually happy to have us, appreciative more than enthusiastic. Often they even pay money :-o
It was funny with 'Oranges' . He ( facing us) had his back to them. I was watching their reaction because it is a bit interesting ( read unconventional) in it's structure and their reaction was priceless. It was the final piece and as the dust settled into the silence he shouted "And again!" So they got a double dose. He loves the piece. For a while he was the only one. As we get better at it, it is growing on me.
Australian classical audiences are usually older, reserved and undemonstrative except for the usual kind comments so the best way to gauge the performance is actually to watch their individual reactions, not that you have much time for that.