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Only $2,000 to improve your amp's performance

I spent some good quality time with the musicord pro (about $180 IIRC), and although I'm sure I'll be instantly dismissed by folks who's minds are all made up, I was very impressed with the tone and clarity. I AB'd it about a dozen times with my LMII rig, and again just now, just to make sure I wasn't making up something in my head. Every time I preferred the sound of the ESP hands down (so did my pro musician neighbor who listened with me a while back, and he had no idea what it was or how much it cost until after we were done, but perhaps my gullability had already infected him).
 
Okay, I respect Pops as much as anybody, but what does that have to do with anything being discussed here? Such as blind testing, for example? Are you claiming that some people's liking for the sound of Ampeg 8-10s means that the pseudoscience behind the concept of a $2000 power cord must be valid?

Trust me, anyone who can really hear the difference between an Ampeg 8-10 and say, the speaker in the car door of my Subaru could easily prove it in a blind test, and anyone who couldn't prove it in a blind test can't hear the difference.

The $800 dollar power cord from ESP (they do not have a $2000 power cord) was never intended to be used for live pro sound. It was intended for the high-end audiophile market, for customers who spend large sums of money (whether they are getting their monies worth or not is up for discussion) on their gear and want to maintain a high-end solution. The actual cords that we should be talking about are the $109 and $159 MusicCord/MusicCord Pro. Still expensive and high-end, but hardly $2000. I think the point is... has anyone on this thread who claims this product is snake oil, pseudoscience and a fraud proven it as so? I have seen a whole host of negative and, dare I say, egotistical opinions of what "is" possible yet no actual tests? Hardly scientific, wouldn't you say?

Forgive my layman understanding of Science and Physics, but it was always my understanding that they were tools to uncover truth, not truth themselves. Science once said that man would never fly. Tell that to the Wright brothers. Before Issac Newton discovered the theory of gravity, did all physical objects float off into space? Of course not. Science is constantly updating itself as the reality of ourselves, our world and universe are revealed. But paradigms can't be broken if people remain closed-minded. Those who are scientific minded tend to be skeptical and that is a good thing. But to also be so closed minded such that a person's own understanding of physics literally keeps them imprisoned is hardly ideal. If a closed-minded sceptic runs a blind test with such a mindset, then without realizing it, that person may themselves become a component in the failure of that very test to provide an accurate result.

I too am very skeptical about the possible sonic improvements that can be had via a $159 power cord, but at least I remain open-minded enough to consider it a "possibility".

I guess what I'm saying is if a bassist says they hear a difference when using this power cord, or instrument cord, or speaker cord, or gamma isolation pad, or strings, pickups, amp/cab combo, etc., so be it. If it sounds good to him/her, then it does to them. You can argue all you want with scientific charts, knowledge, etc... but their hearing is 100% subjective to them and it is their decision if the price paid for said improvement was a good use of money.
 
If you whack an avocado with the cord, it'll sound squishy.

It'll be one of the only ways a power cord can have "sound": either hit something with it, or put it under enough tension that you can play it like a string.

Used as a power cord, though, there is no "sound" to it.
 
I spent some good quality time with the musicord pro (about $180 IIRC), and although I'm sure I'll be instantly dismissed by folks who's minds are all made up, I was very impressed with the tone and clarity. I AB'd it about a dozen times with my LMII rig, and again just now, just to make sure I wasn't making up something in my head. Every time I preferred the sound of the ESP hands down (so did my pro musician neighbor who listened with me a while back, and he had no idea what it was or how much it cost until after we were done, but perhaps my gullability had already infected him).

Prepare to be destroyed by the nay-sayers!!! :hiding:
 
The $800 dollar power cord from ESP (they do not have a $2000 power cord) was never intended to be used for live pro sound. It was intended for the high-end audiophile market, for customers who spend large sums of money (whether they are getting their monies worth or not is up for discussion) on their gear and want to maintain a high-end solution. The actual cords that we should be talking about are the $109 and $159 MusicCord/MusicCord Pro. Still expensive and high-end, but hardly $2000. I think the point is... has anyone on this thread who claims this product is snake oil, pseudoscience and a fraud proven it as so? I have seen a whole host of negative and, dare I say, egotistical opinions of what "is" possible yet no actual tests? Hardly scientific, wouldn't you say?

Forgive my layman understanding of Science and Physics, but it was always my understanding that they were tools to uncover truth, not truth themselves. Science once said that man would never fly. Tell that to the Wright brothers. Before Issac Newton discovered the theory of gravity, did all physical objects float off into space? Of course not. Science is constantly updating itself as the reality of ourselves, our world and universe are revealed. But paradigms can't be broken if people remain closed-minded. Those who are scientific minded tend to be skeptical and that is a good thing. But to also be so closed minded such that a person's own understanding of physics literally keeps them imprisoned is hardly ideal. If a closed-minded sceptic runs a blind test with such a mindset, then without realizing it, that person may themselves become a component in the failure of that very test to provide an accurate result.

I too am very skeptical about the possible sonic improvements that can be had via a $159 power cord, but at least I remain open-minded enough to consider it a "possibility".

I guess what I'm saying is if a bassist says they hear a difference when using this power cord, or instrument cord, or speaker cord, or gamma isolation pad, or strings, pickups, amp/cab combo, etc., so be it. If it sounds good to him/her, then it does to them. You can argue all you want with scientific charts, knowledge, etc... but their hearing is 100% subjective to them and it is their decision if the price paid for said improvement was a good use of money.

You can spend money on anything at all, even fairy dust.

But knowing what a power cord does will put you in a much better position of judging whether your money is well spent. A misunderstanding of what science is will not.
 
I assume that anything is possible. Maybe thats the problem right there

Oh well, I'm glad that there are so many different kinds of values and perspectives here on Talkbass. I wouldn't ever desire to tell someone else that their perceptions are impossible.. These kinds of conversations seem to be designed to divide people. I just chimed in because I thought my personal experience with this product might be relevant to the discussion, but I didn't realize that folks' personal experience had to be scientifically justified to be worth consideration. I'd rather listen with my ears than my brain, just me, YMMV.

Now flog with me with your Nay sticks! :D
 
I guess I should learn what you know, so that my ears will be more honest

The only thing to learn is that unless you can differentiate BLINDLY and repeatedly, you cannot be sure you are really discerning a difference with your ears. You can call it science, but it is simple logic. Have your friend come over and play the same recorded riff through the same rig, swapping only the cord. Do it once after he tells you which cord is in use. Then, while you face away, listen to each again and tell him which cord is in use. Tell him to vary the order of which cord he connects (do not alternate every time) and mix it up. Try this 50 times, 25 with each cord, and have him "correct" your sheet. If you're not correct at least about 40 times (I would hope it's more than that if the difference is worth paying for), then the likelihood of you being right has not exceeded that expected based on pure chance. It baffles me that some people cannot see this as an easy way to validate or disprove the claim that it makes a real difference.
 
The $800 dollar power cord from ESP (they do not have a $2000 power cord) was never intended to be used for live pro sound. It was intended for the high-end audiophile market, for customers who spend large sums of money (whether they are getting their monies worth or not is up for discussion) on their gear and want to maintain a high-end solution. The actual cords that we should be talking about are the $109 and $159 MusicCord/MusicCord Pro. Still expensive and high-end, but hardly $2000. I think the point is... has anyone on this thread who claims this product is snake oil, pseudoscience and a fraud proven it as so? I have seen a whole host of negative and, dare I say, egotistical opinions of what "is" possible yet no actual tests? Hardly scientific, wouldn't you say?

Forgive my layman understanding of Science and Physics, but it was always my understanding that they were tools to uncover truth, not truth themselves. Science once said that man would never fly. Tell that to the Wright brothers. Before Issac Newton discovered the theory of gravity, did all physical objects float off into space? Of course not. Science is constantly updating itself as the reality of ourselves, our world and universe are revealed. But paradigms can't be broken if people remain closed-minded. Those who are scientific minded tend to be skeptical and that is a good thing. But to also be so closed minded such that a person's own understanding of physics literally keeps them imprisoned is hardly ideal. If a closed-minded sceptic runs a blind test with such a mindset, then without realizing it, that person may themselves become a component in the failure of that very test to provide an accurate result.

I too am very skeptical about the possible sonic improvements that can be had via a $159 power cord, but at least I remain open-minded enough to consider it a "possibility".

I guess what I'm saying is if a bassist says they hear a difference when using this power cord, or instrument cord, or speaker cord, or gamma isolation pad, or strings, pickups, amp/cab combo, etc., so be it. If it sounds good to him/her, then it does to them. You can argue all you want with scientific charts, knowledge, etc... but their hearing is 100% subjective to them and it is their decision if the price paid for said improvement was a good use of money.

You're kind of missing the point. Of course their money is theirs to spend. my goodness, who ever said it wasn't? So please just drop that one; it's an irrelevant nonstarter.

As for science, of course it's a search for truth. But here's what you seem to be missing: every step on that path is based on something already achieved. IOW, we learn stuff, and the stuff we learn next is learned against the framework of what we've learned already.

This means that we don't try to reinvent the wheel every time around, for one thing. It also means that for some questions, there already exists good presumptive evidence for or against, before you even start to address the question. And you are not compelled to give equal weight to a possibility if there is no evidence for it and a lot of presumptive evidence against it. (Before you jump to conclusions, that does NOT mean that you refuse to be convinced by solid proof if that does become available.)

Thus, if a 400 pound man comes up to me and says, I can fly like a bird just by flapping my arms, what do I do? Do I pretend that this is possible and plausible and think, gee, I dunno, maybe he can, I guess I shouldn't say he can't until someone proves it's impossible? Is that what you think science demands? No, of course not. In this case, there is VERY strong presumptive evidence against the possibility that the man can do what he says, and no sensible person would give this idea the time of day without a bucketload of proof. The burden of proof is not on the person who thinks the guy can't fly, it's on the would-be flier. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

What the electronics people on this thread are telling you is that this power cable business is basically the same kind of thing as the 400 pound guy flapping his arms and flying. There's a lot of presumptive evidence counting against it, and virtually none of any weight counting for it. For this reason, it doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt; it deserves to be doubted until it can prove itself (if it ever does, which I doubt).

You might think, well, aren't there some scientific ideas that everybody pooh-poohed at first, yet that later turned out to be true? Of course there are. But here's the point: they all prevailed because when push came to shove, they could actually prove themselves. You could put them to the test, and they would pass, or at least do significantly better than the prevailing theories or practices. The power cable guys haven't done that, and seem to be afraid of the very idea of trying. Therefore, until they come up with some real evidence, I see no reason to accord their claims any credence at all. That's not closed-minded, whatever you may think; it's just attempting to have a little rigor in your thinking.
 
You're kind of missing the point. Of course their money is theirs to spend. my goodness, who ever said it wasn't? So please just drop that one; it's an irrelevant nonstarter.

As for science, of course it's a search for truth. But here's what you seem to be missing: every step on that path is based on something already achieved. IOW, we learn stuff, and the stuff we learn next is learned against the framework of what we've learned already.

This means that we don't try to reinvent the wheel every time around, for one thing. It also means that for some questions, there already exists good presumptive evidence for or against, before you even start to address the question. And you are not compelled to give equal weight to a possibility if there is no evidence for it and a lot of presumptive evidence against it. (Before you jump to conclusions, that does NOT mean that you refuse to be convinced by solid proof if that does become available.)

Thus, if a 400 pound man comes up to me and says, I can fly like a bird just by flapping my arms, what do I do? Do I pretend that this is possible and plausible and think, gee, I dunno, maybe he can, I guess I shouldn't say he can't until someone proves it's impossible? Is that what you think science demands? No, of course not. In this case, there is VERY strong presumptive evidence against the possibility that the man can do what he says, and no sensible person would give this idea the time of day without a bucketload of proof. The burden of proof is not on the person who thinks the guy can't fly, it's on the would-be flier. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

What the electronics people on this thread are telling you is that this power cable business is basically the same kind of thing as the 400 pound guy flapping his arms and flying. There's a lot of presumptive evidence counting against it, and virtually none of any weight counting for it. For this reason, it doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt; it deserves to be doubted until it can prove itself (if it ever does, which I doubt).

You might think, well, aren't there some scientific ideas that everybody pooh-poohed at first, yet that later turned out to be true? Of course there are. But here's the point: they all prevailed because when push came to shove, they could actually prove themselves. You could put them to the test, and they would pass, or at least do significantly better than the prevailing theories or practices. The power cable guys haven't done that, and seem to be afraid of the very idea of trying. Therefore, until they come up with some real evidence, I see no reason to accord their claims any credence at all. That's not closed-minded, whatever you may think; it's just attempting to have a little rigor in your thinking.

Eloquent, Sir. +1
 
I don't think they are worth that, but it's just senseless to buy a $3,500 amp with superb wiring and components only to plug it to the wall with a $6 IEC cable. IMHO.... again IMHO these cables do make a LITTLE difference. They are just not worth hundreds of dollars. The people making them know a lot of people will buy them (audiophiles, mastering studios and the sort) and they sell for a ridiculous price.

As a side note: Anyone has a link for the crystals that you place on top of speakers that make them sound better? I really need those.... :hiding: