Double Bass Open strings -- arco

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Simandl is second generation Wenzel Hause(1764-1845), Prague School. After Hause came Slama(1804-1881) and Harbe'(1816-1870) and then Storch(1841-1877) and Simandl(1840-1912) who both studied directly with Harbe'. Have you ever seen the books by Storch-Harbe' ?...

If I live to 100, I wont be as good as they were 150 years ago. That music is hard. Life then was different and you had to practice hard for hours each day. The Basses then were not as easy to play as they are now. We are too soft as compared to the likes of Simandl and his teachers. After you can play all that they did, then come and tell me Simandl is dated.

I think it takes a modern day Virtuoso that can play all these methods to give a valid opinion of which to judge by.

Check out these links; http://hometown.aol.com/scrtchbox/Basstree.html
http://www.billbentgen.com/bass/players/others.htm#Hrabe
http://www.billbentgen.com/bass/bass_player_hall_of_fame.htm

I have Books by Storch, Harabe, Slama, Simandl, Zimmerman, Bottesini, Bille and a few others.

If I can play half of what the Prague School players could 100 years ago I would be a happy man. Not just the notes, but the bowings, dynamics and techniques. Simandl IS really Book I. Can you imagine what it would be like to play the equivilant to book 12?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I certainly agree that people who have been playing for many decades and have devoted their lives to the subject are in a better position to judge which method is better.....

But, speaking as a listener/music fan - wouldn't you agree that the demands on bass players are very different now to Simandl's time and for example, current Symphony Orchestras are playing works that would have been unimaginable then, with much more complexity?

So - I go to the Prom Concerts at the Albert Hall and see things like Messiaen's Turangalila or his last work which had virtually every member of the orchestra playing separate parts, or Ligeti's Violin Concerto where parts were tuned slightly differently....

Also - I have fairly early recordings of European Orchestras and they sound (to my humble ear) kind of "sloppy" - solos can be out of tune, with bum notes - ensemble not entirely together or crisp, unitentional tuning discrepancies etc. etc.

This contrasts with performances of incredibly complex modern works I have seen, played immaculately by today's Berlin Philharmonic, for example - where it seemed unthinkable that anything was less than perfect from every single member..?

Ok - you could argue about interpretations and tempos - but in terms of sheer technique, there seem to be a genuine improvement in big orchestras today, on their prececessors?

 

[Samie]

..

If I live to 100, I wont be as good as they were 150 years ago. That music is hard. Life then was different and you had to practice hard for hours each day. The Basses then were not as easy to play as they are now. We are too soft as compared to the likes of Simandl and his teachers. After you can play all that they did, then come and tell me Simandl is dated.
...

That is exactly my point. I will never be a virtuoso, especially with arco. I will probably never play in an orchestra. As far as I know, I have no plans of even playing chamber music with friends. My goals are to be able to play and "think" both pizz and arco at the same level. Arco will mostly be for my own personal enjoyment.

Pizz and Jazz its a another story .

Now days many players probably think similar

It still a great book, besides, who am I to judge it.

I like to complement my simandl studies playing standards and other non fingered music with the arco. When I only studied Simandl my arco and expresion were very poor, it was quite boring. Now I enjoy the book a lot more.

We might be saying the same thing ken, it just sounds different. lol

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Bruce, all of Beethovans', Hydens', Rossinis', Shuberts' and Mozarts' works were available. I suggest you find the books I just described above and come here and talk ''demanding".

On a difficulity scale of 1-10, the average Symphonic work ranges between 4 and 6 in my mind and many others harder. The Dragonetti Concerto I was told is ranked at about a 7. Many of the Books I have are harder for the most part. I can't see anything more demanding now in an Orchestra that is was back in Simandls day.

Wanna play good Pizz/Jazz?.. Work your butt off with the Bow and watch your left hand technique improve overnight !

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I can't see anything more demanding now in an Orchestra that is was back in Simandls day.

Have you ever seen or been in involved in an orchestra playing Messiaen's "Turangalila Symphonie" or how about something like Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" - I sat near the basses at the Albert Hall and there seemed to be some astonishing technique required, for that - I can remember seeing some Shostakovich symphonies, where basses were heavily featured and exposed, as well...?

A lot of modern (20C) works certainly look more demanding than the bass parts in Beethoven's symphonies for, example - I have study scores of those as well as Mahler's Symphonies, the Rite of Spring etc. and there seems to be a progression of greater difficulty introduced with time - shifting time signatures, sudden changes into blazing speeds, fast ensemble passages etc. etc. ?

 

[Hector Wolff]

Simandl is thus a little dated on the shifting thing. It takes way to long to move down the neck. I started in january with the DB and i am around position IV with my simandl teacher(he says I am way ahead ). On the jazz scene and at home with the bow I hit the firsts T-positions months ago. With my little experience, I find my intonation way better using finges 1&2 up there.

Samie,
You seem to be talking about the method book and I am talking about the technique. How long it takes to work your way through the book has nothing to do with the value of the technique itself.

You find your intonation in thumb position better using just 1 & 2? I find I can be equally well in tune or, unfortunately, equally well out of tune with any of the three fingers up there.

So what do you do when you want to make the perfect fourth, shift again? That in itself seems inefficient.

 

[Samie]

Samie,
You seem to be talking about the method book and I am talking about the technique. How long it takes to work your way through the book has nothing to do with the value of the technique itself.

You find your intonation in thumb position better using just 1 & 2? I find I can be equally well in tune or, unfortunately, equally well out of tune with any of the three fingers up there.

So what do you do when you want to make the perfect fourth, shift again? That in itself seems inefficient.

I am talking about the book, I guess. In thumb position I use T 1 2 3, for now. Shifting is not a main issue, I sometime try to play things on just one or two strings. Melodies sound a lot smoother that way, dont ask me why.

Ken, you are right, I try to play as much arco as possible. Anything from jazz melodies to mtv tunes i try to use the bow in my practice time.

In the US is probably different, but here in europe there are lots of players that after 10 or more years the dont really know how to play. They can read music and recite what is written but that's it. Many classical methods are to blame for this because they leave intereprentation and enjoyment for very last.

I have heard some really terrible stories.