• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Open strings vs. stopped notes

F

fergus currie

Mar 30, 2009
413
9
Athens Greece
www.myspace.com
#1
Recently in orchestral playing I have been using more and more stopped notes for A,D and G. I have also started playing much more up the A and D string in general reserving the Gstring for either high passages (d and upwards), passages where shifting is not an option (fast arpeggios etc.) or where a 'lead voice' singing tone is appropriate.

The open strings, even if they are all in tune, sound rather dead. I'm starting to go over to the idea of 'better sound' (i.e. vibrato) rather than perfect intonnation with no vibrato.

The other problem is that it oly takes one player in the section to leave the open string ringing to ruin any staccatto or silences.

In Struass waltzes the open D and A strings sound good but they can ring on a bit and ruin the tight bass sound. On the other hand the stopped notes can be out of tune (something which is actually much more disturbing inside the section than it is to the audience, who dont really hear too much difference.).

So what do people think about these approaches?

FC
 
#2
Much might depend on your bass and strings. The open D and A strings are usually warmer and fuller sounding than the G with orchestral strings. I use Bel Cantos, having recently moved from Helicores.

I prefer the tone, adjustability and use of vibrato on the stopped G when sustaining a longer note but will happily pass through open G when runs are faster and it suits the fingering best. The same goes for bowing a sustained D on the A string but I prefer the longer open D and A strings for Pizzicato, damping the ends of notes gently to avoid them spilling over into unwanted places.

I do play held notes on open strings sometimes when I am sure they are in tune, but control the endings carefully with "release" (the tapering off of bow weight as the movement and the note stop together, to keep the end sound musical). Using the release with good timing and coordination I can pass through open strings without sounds blurring into each other and with only a small variation in bow weight. During practice I can check this by listening to the bass while looking down at the vibrations of the strings.

This sort of note control, from start to finish of each sound, would be very difficult on a bass set up for jazz sustain with, say, Spirocores that roll under the bow before speaking.

DP
 
#5
Yeah!! Practice....
but even then you'll never get there.

One thing that gets me is playing a waltz in a section 'D rest rest, A rest rest' for bars on end and hearing tail-ends and a dull dummm,{,{, dumm,{,{ ad infinitum.

Who plays the last note of Ab,G,F,C,G at the end of the first excerpt of Ein Heldenleben on an open string?

We did 'Faust' last month and the first scene starts with the basses (without celli after the first bar) on a repeated A. I couldn't figure out which was better (or worse..): open string with no vibrato but (almost) in tune or the warmer stopped note with vibrato but with noticably less accuracy in intonnation.....

More and more I'm giving up open strings even where they would seem to make no difference because I feel more continuity somehow.

And if we re-finger passages to include stopped notes which would be open strings we're not talking about 3 notes but a different approach where things end up in third and fourth position instead of what might look like an obvious half and first.

Just thinking out loud guys...
FC
 
#7
Fergus, in your waltz example I would always play closed D and open A (1) so that I avoid two open strings in succession and (2) because my LH fingers are in a good position to damp the end of the open A. Also I can stop the open A with release, not lifting off while the string is still vibrating,

When it comes to intonation we are perhaps debating about the "absolute" intonation that we strive for when practicing and the relative pitching that is the working compromise on the job. I played for years with a principal who, to my ears, was always a little sharp. When I tried to debate this with him I lost every time!! We do the best we can?

So long as there is not a "rotten apple" among the various "unison" notes a little bit of spread does blend into a warmer sound. You can hear this when listening to 30 violins playing together. We all play out of tune slightly, sometimes even to hear our own pitch distinctly in the section sound. Are we talking about a matter of being a millimeter either side of "bang on" center?

The final solution which we strive for is to be strong but flexible and versatile with our intonation and technique?

Cheers......

DP
 
#8
It's definitely not a good thing to let strings ring on... but that just means it is necessary to pay attention and damp them when required. Especially pizz, it seems so many players forget that pizza notes have a duration and it needs to be controlled (of course, the notation often doesn't help, you have to guess what that duration should be many times).
 
#9
I've noticed when I am principal in a house-league orchestra, if I stick to basic 1/2 and 1st position Simandl-esque fingering with all open strings where possible, the others in the section tend to do the same and the section is much more in tune.

When I play the same notes in middle-of-the-neck zone using closed ADG's and pivoting fingerings, the others try to do the same and the result is an out of tune bass section.

So, during rehearsals, I tend to use open strings but during the performance, I'll play up the neck as I can inject more subtly to the music.

When playing with pro orchestras I usually play up the neck (unless it is the end of the second service of the day and I'm getting mentally tired :) ).

If the music is early classical or baroque and I'm the only bassist, I generally use the fingering as in the first paragraph with no vibrato as this would be the performance practice of the time. It seems to sound more authentic that way. Sometimes if the G or D sounds a bit too zingy, I'll semi-mute the sound with the side of my first finger so it sounds more like a closed note. There is a bit more control of repeated off the string notes this way, too.
 
#11
David Potts said:
I played for years with a principal who, to my ears, was always a little sharp. When I tried to debate this with him I lost every time!!
Click to expand...

Ha! Dave, we played in the same band!

I have another theory... the bass sounds sharp from the right, dull from the left, too loud from the front and just right only if you're leaning over it! ;)


Andrew, Yeah pizza has a short shelf-life! (I hope things are getting back to normal after the disaster, man!)

In our rehearsal today stopped notes were becoming more popular as I try to get it into fashion enough to really judge if it's working. We are only the front 4 and we're doing 'The Merry Widdow' so there's no real pressure and the section is sounding already more controlled and even. Big numbers like Tosca or Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet are coming soon so if we get things together now we'll have a real opportunity to 'test fly' the new approach.

It seems that once you get the team really on board about this idea things can definitely get better, but it takes time and you have to convince everyone. I'm going to reserve final judgement until after R&J (April/May) but I can feel where it's going.

Thanks for all the input on this, a seemingly unimportant point, from a lot of guys that have really thought a lot about this.

Cheers
FC

I hope you appreciate my reason for editing below! ;)
 
#12
Commonly when playing alone, I find that an open string can often sound really weird in a piece. Like a harmonic, only to be used when it's a short note - any significant note on the open string will sound a bit dull, but more importantly, harshly reveal how much off I've 'slid' while playing in no man's land. By taking it stopped on the string below, I'll intonate it to fit the rest of what I've played. Playing a bit out of tune is bad, but it only really shows if you suddenly start playing in tune. Unless you play with other persons or someone with perfect pitch, of course.

With a reservation for my brutal honesty and discrete sense of humour.
 
#15
Fergus, I agree with you about each ear hearing differently. I don't think my right ear hears the same ratio of upper partials to fundamentals as my left. My right ear hears a brighter sharper sound but my left ear is more attuned to the fundamental. Each player in the section seems to choose a mix of sound that they can distinguish from the surrounding players. I have always tried to go deep by bending the bow hair around the string to control the uppers, without killing the string movement. Others will try and put more edge on their sound to cut through while I try to sail through underneath them, an octave lower.

Cheers...

DP
 
#17
MartinBorgen said:
Playing a bit out of tune is bad, but it only really shows if you suddenly start playing in tune.
Click to expand...

Or if it's an outdoor gig and your bass has been slowly going sharp as the temperature drops, you've been playing in tune but suddenly have a miles-sharp note in the middle.

Like everything in orchestral playing, there is no absolute rule about this... you use your judgement with respect to a) is the sound going to work in the context of this work with this orchestra and conductor and b) is it going to be in tune.
 
#18
Hmmm. I like my open strings, and most orchestral players I've worked with use them alot and seem to always play in the lowest position available. I do hate to hear an open D ringing when it should have been damped, but isn't this more a problem of poor training or lack of concientiousness? There are times when I touch the open string near the nut to make it decay faster, and I also try to keep all strings damped to keep them from ringing sympathetically. One of the first things my first teacher told me was to always play the longest string length. On every bass I've played the lowest C on the G string sounds better there than higher up on the D or A.
Just my two cents.
 
#19
I think it's all a matter of what tone colour fits the music at the right time. in Orchestra, unless told otherwise, I generally play 1st and 1/2 positions. There are of course, major exceptions to this for fingering and phrasing ease, but I just find that a lot of lines work better this way.

That being said, IMHO, i don't think anyone can ever use the excuse that an open string will be in tune. Most orchestras have the nasty tendency of going sharp over time, so when you play an open string, you are out of tune in comparison to the orchestra. are you right? probably, but when everyone else is wrong you sound awful funny. If you play a fingered note instead, and you're out of tune, you can fix it, whereas it's a little bit more difficult to tune an open string. I don't know if this is a controversial opinion or not, it just seems logical to me.

eerbrev
 
#20
In my opinion, at the top level of orchestral playing, open strings are to be avoided unless one is looking for a special 'open' sound. You rarely hear other string instruments playing open strings. There are exceptions of course - very fast passages where the open string won't 'stick out' for example.

The intonation 'benefit' idea is baloney as I see it. You either play in tune or you don't. Is it ok for every note other than an open string to be out of tune?? no. So then there's no reason to treat the notes EADG any different.

The idea that the audience and others sitting further away can't hear the basses playing out of tune is nonsense too! Of course they can! If they couldn't, us basses would have a reputation of being always perfectly in tune- which is unfortunately not the case.

Intonation is one of the fundamental aspects of being a musician, along with rhythm and control of volume/tone. If we give up and decide that it'll never be right, or it's too hard, we might as well pack it in, IMO.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back