okcrum
in your chest
Ebony is dense, so it won't accept much oil. I have seen slab rosewood boards dry out enough to start chipping at the heel, though.
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Opinion from luthiers.. Oiling a fretboard?
- Thread starter SamJ
- Start date
Ebony is dense, so it won't accept much oil. I have seen slab rosewood boards dry out enough to start chipping at the heel, though.
I'm not a luthier, but I have made an observation. I've never seen any professional luthier or instrument manufacture sport the kind of militantly anti-fretboard oiling attitudes that are common in internetland. They usually always suggest that you oil your fretboard, even if the reason or frequency at which you should do so varies.
i am not a luthier, but i play one in beer commercials. i say always polish your wood at least once a week! that is all...
I'm not a luthier either, so consider my comments in that context. I've poked around the 'net a bit, hoping to make an informed evaluation. Here are some highlights (or low-lights):
Many oils eventually goes rancid, particularly those that are plant based. Gunstock oil finishes are mostly based on linseed oil, and these products polymerize. As such, they will be absorbed into the wood and eventually harden. Sometimes beeswax is added to linseed oil when used as a wood finish. That said, linseed oil by itself provides little barrier to water vapor, and it's subject to mildew before it polymerizes.
Mineral oil, a petroleum product like Vaseline, does not harden. It doesn't go rancid, but it'll stay in a tacky state. I figure if it's used on a fingerboard, it'd be best to wipe as much of it off as possible after application.
Tung oil, a.k.a Danish oil, is a wood finish. It takes a long time to harden and requires multiple applications to be a barrier against moisture. Over time, I'd guess it'd be pretty effective protection if one used it at every string change and allowed enough time for it to harden. Subsequent applications, however, could entrap finger gunk if the fingerboard wasn't thoroughly cleaned with something like alcohol before application of the oil.
Here's a link I stumbled upon, with what appears to be good info (it's the Internet, after all...):
Invalid Link Removed
With this info, my takeaway? It's this: I still have no idea what's best to use.
Many oils eventually goes rancid, particularly those that are plant based. Gunstock oil finishes are mostly based on linseed oil, and these products polymerize. As such, they will be absorbed into the wood and eventually harden. Sometimes beeswax is added to linseed oil when used as a wood finish. That said, linseed oil by itself provides little barrier to water vapor, and it's subject to mildew before it polymerizes.
Mineral oil, a petroleum product like Vaseline, does not harden. It doesn't go rancid, but it'll stay in a tacky state. I figure if it's used on a fingerboard, it'd be best to wipe as much of it off as possible after application.
Tung oil, a.k.a Danish oil, is a wood finish. It takes a long time to harden and requires multiple applications to be a barrier against moisture. Over time, I'd guess it'd be pretty effective protection if one used it at every string change and allowed enough time for it to harden. Subsequent applications, however, could entrap finger gunk if the fingerboard wasn't thoroughly cleaned with something like alcohol before application of the oil.
Here's a link I stumbled upon, with what appears to be good info (it's the Internet, after all...):
Invalid Link Removed
With this info, my takeaway? It's this: I still have no idea what's best to use.
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There is nothing wrong with oil on a fretboard. Oil is not able to block the humidity totally but it replaces humidity more and more. The wood soaks oil a little bit under the surface of the fretboard and many oils have the capability to harden. So, time after time, the fretboard will be more resistant against air humidity after a while, because water has no chance to displace hard oil, that's for sure. It is more a protection build up over the years.
I use a mix of lemon oil and boiled linseed oil two to four times a year. Lemon oil thins the linssed oil, so the wood soaks it deeper under the surface. Linseed has the capability to harden and lemon oil smells good. The color of the wood gets more brilliant and a shade darker.
I use a mix of lemon oil and boiled linseed oil two to four times a year. Lemon oil thins the linssed oil, so the wood soaks it deeper under the surface. Linseed has the capability to harden and lemon oil smells good. The color of the wood gets more brilliant and a shade darker.
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The board get a sand anyway. Fretslots are also freshened up with a saw. Between the two, the dried coating of oil is roughed up enough for glue to take to it....
Which is a point worth making. Most of the traditional oil finishes actually dry and leave a hardened residue in/on the timber. In many cases, these can be painted over, so gluing is no drama.
Yeah, to expand on what Spacecase is saying:
Most of the products that are referred to as "oil" are actually oil-based varnishes. They are finishes, which chemically harden when exposed to air. They are called "oil" because they are supplied in a thin viscosity. You wipe them on, much of it sinks down into the pores, you wipe off the excess, and what's down in the pores hardens, permanently sealing the wood against moisture. That's what you want. I personally like Stew-Mac's Fingerboard Oil, but there are many other similar products. They are called "oil" but they are hardening, penetrating finishes. This includes Tru-Oil, Watco Danish Oil, most Tung Oil products, and most Lemon Oil products. Look at the labels. Most of the products have the word Finish in there.
You can get pure Tung Oil, Lemon Oil, and Linseed Oil if you look for it. Like Mineral Oil, these fluids will sink down into the pores, but they never fully harden. If you put one of these pure oils on genuine bare wood, then you will have trouble putting an oil-based varnish on over it. It may not harden.
Almost every manufacturer and Luthier that I know of uses some kind of oil-based varnish on their "bare wood" fingerboards. It's fast and cheap, and prevents cracking. Once that varnish is hardened down in the pores, the wood is sealed up, and it doesn't really matter if you wipe it down later with any of the oil-based products. You can if you want to; it's not going to hurt anything.
Most of the products that are referred to as "oil" are actually oil-based varnishes. They are finishes, which chemically harden when exposed to air. They are called "oil" because they are supplied in a thin viscosity. You wipe them on, much of it sinks down into the pores, you wipe off the excess, and what's down in the pores hardens, permanently sealing the wood against moisture. That's what you want. I personally like Stew-Mac's Fingerboard Oil, but there are many other similar products. They are called "oil" but they are hardening, penetrating finishes. This includes Tru-Oil, Watco Danish Oil, most Tung Oil products, and most Lemon Oil products. Look at the labels. Most of the products have the word Finish in there.
You can get pure Tung Oil, Lemon Oil, and Linseed Oil if you look for it. Like Mineral Oil, these fluids will sink down into the pores, but they never fully harden. If you put one of these pure oils on genuine bare wood, then you will have trouble putting an oil-based varnish on over it. It may not harden.
Almost every manufacturer and Luthier that I know of uses some kind of oil-based varnish on their "bare wood" fingerboards. It's fast and cheap, and prevents cracking. Once that varnish is hardened down in the pores, the wood is sealed up, and it doesn't really matter if you wipe it down later with any of the oil-based products. You can if you want to; it's not going to hurt anything.
curious, so is Guitar Honey just a colored mineral oil then? I mean aren't all of these things basically the same just re-branded?
Sorta reminds of me of the Virtuoso polish... isn't that basically a natural wax? not much different than Johnson's Paste wax?
Sorta reminds of me of the Virtuoso polish... isn't that basically a natural wax? not much different than Johnson's Paste wax?
I'm an amateur builder and do repair/setup work as well. On my own instruments, the fingerboard finish depends on the wood. Maple and heart pine get lacquer, whilst rosewood, ebony and others generally get one coat of a Japanese oil varnish, followed by Briwax. Once a year or so, I clean with lemon oil and, if necessary, reapply the finish.
When I do work on instruments for others, including setups or refrets on electrics or acoustics, I usually clean the board with lemon oil. Some boards take only a little, and some will take more, although I never go overboard. Also, you don't want it in the slots when refretting.
When I do work on instruments for others, including setups or refrets on electrics or acoustics, I usually clean the board with lemon oil. Some boards take only a little, and some will take more, although I never go overboard. Also, you don't want it in the slots when refretting.
From my laymans perspective, I've never seen a bass explode or one hanging in a shop for repair due to over-oiling. I also find it interesting that Alembic suggests oiling as close as possible to the frets, when the common argument against it is that oil will make the fret slots loose.
maybe a testament to the quality of construction of said fretboards... I mean I've owned dozens of guitars and basses, some older some brand new... I've had some adjust their relative position over the years in temrs of height or maybe laterally by a nanometer here or there, but a fret actually pop? never..
Bruce:
Thanks for the additional information. It looks like there's two basic approaches to fingerboard care -- one based on oil (e.g. mineral oil) and another on a oil-based finish. At least to me, the ones able to quickly polymerize make the most sense.
I saw the description of the Stew-Mac product; a small outlay will last me the rest of my life. That's not to say it's the best thing out there, but the differences are probably buried in the noise.
Lastly...I have some friends in Santa Paula. On a future trip, I'd like to stop by and see what's going on in Fillmore.
Thanks for the additional information. It looks like there's two basic approaches to fingerboard care -- one based on oil (e.g. mineral oil) and another on a oil-based finish. At least to me, the ones able to quickly polymerize make the most sense.
I saw the description of the Stew-Mac product; a small outlay will last me the rest of my life. That's not to say it's the best thing out there, but the differences are probably buried in the noise.
Lastly...I have some friends in Santa Paula. On a future trip, I'd like to stop by and see what's going on in Fillmore.
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I've seen a guitar that had problems with frets coming loose from too much oil. The owner basically did the Alembic 6 month treatment every two weeks for several years. It was a mess.
Sure, Fillmore is just up the road from Santa Paula. You are welcome to stop in and see what's on the slab, down in the Secret Underground Scroll Bass Laboratory.
Sealing up the fret slots is another very important part of building a bass that will last for decades. The fret slot has two wide open walls of end grain, just waiting to suck up moisture. If moisture from the air, sweat from your hands, beer spray from the crowd, etc., wicks under the fret into the slot, those side walls will swell up, pushing the fret up. Getting some kind of finish down in there before the frets go in is a good thing. A hardening finish is preferred, as long as it isn't so thick that interferes with the fret going in.
And that's also the main reason for gluing in frets: To seal up the wood in the slots. I use Macassar ebony for fingerboards on almost all of my basses. After slotting, sanding and polishing the surface, I wipe on about two coats of the Stew-Mac Fingerboard Oil, let it dry for 10 minutes, then wipe off the excess and buff it (on a soft cotton wheel that's used only for fingerboards). During fretting, I use a syringe to lay a thin bead of LMI's Instrument Makers Glue down in the slot, and press the fret in. It's locked and sealed and ready to face the beer spray.
In all my years I've never followed anyone on any forum. Never ran across anyone worth the time. This is a first.
I've built a bass during a course with a luthier. His way was to oil one time a year, with linseed.
I did it, but stopped linseed because of the old fish smell. I now do it with lemon oil, on rosewood and ebony. I don't have mapple fretboard.
I did it, but stopped linseed because of the old fish smell. I now do it with lemon oil, on rosewood and ebony. I don't have mapple fretboard.
Irrespective of the chosen finish, the key to successful application is to use a scant amount and wipe off immediately. It's virtually impossible to use too little. Enough of the product will remain to do the trick. Those who chose to slather it on like they're marinating a flank steak are in for a rude awakening. Most products I've encountered are thin enough to be worked easily but are also more likely to wick-up when end-grain is exposed / vulnerable.
Riis
Riis
Things have slowed down here a bit so I'll have a stab. Thanks for the thread and the excellent input everyone. I've done a little exploring, a little thinking - I may have set the smoke alarms off with all the effort - my brain hurts - I'm not, by any means, an expert on the subject.
It's Interesting that the mineral oil referred to in Poncherello's link ↑, is used in ↑ as a LAXATIVE! Wouldn't that give you the sh!ts. Coincidence? I think not. I do think good 'lemon' oil is pretty much the same stuff, with a little added 'smellnice,' but perhaps not food grade smellnice. I wouldn't use it as a laxative, just to be sure
You can see the ins and outs of it described here, in a "JOINT FAO/WHO EXPERT COMMITTEE ON FOOD ADDITIVES" report from 2012, where it's listed as a food additive. It's actually used as a lubricant for moving parts in food prep machines and the like, if I'm not mistaken. Good to know it's not harmful ' though the fine print is 'interesting.' (Boring, boring! I know). Meanwhile…
Mineral oil's most salient feature, at least where its use on raw wooden surfaces is concerned, is that it is pretty much inert. Most pointedly, it's not gonna rot. This is particularly good news for people who like to put wooden instruments in their mouths, and don't they know it!
Organic acids, which are often a naturally occurring, stench-laden byproduct of decay - a mishmash of rotting organic matter, like branches, leaves, and other plant and animal matter - are a genuine, corrosive threat to just about anything. One organic acid, humic acid, for example, can, over time and with a little help from the heavens, drill holes through solid rock. Huge holes.
Water, rotting organic matter, and humic acid, created a natural pool here - now it's a waterfall called the Link Removed.
If this kind of chemical process is going on, even on a very small scale, on a fingerboard, or anywhere else, there will no doubt be trouble, over time. Maybe this is the real benefit with something like mineral oil. It can virtually shut down the natural processes of decay, in many ways, cleaning away and nullifying all the gremlins and other dirty rotten nasties in the process.
When I asked my luthier friend, a great man, how I should clean his heavy metal masterpiece, he just handed me a bottle of lemon oil - bless 'im. Little else was said. The subject was 'cleaning.' He said I could treat the whole thing with it too - I was mainly concerned with the fretboard but still, I had to ask - it's a Les Paul copy with a lovely nitro finish. I had no idea, back then, no confidence what-so-ever - and I'm still learning. (OP's thread's going along swimmingly.
Everything's subjective but that's cool.)
I think he told me not to do it too often, and not to use too much. I promptly forgot this and probably oiled the thing a little too often for the first little while. Too much love is not a good thing, sometimes - still, no ill effects. And I've wised up just a tad since then.
I imagine, if you don't use too much oil, you might be able to do it more often but, always, the question to ask yourself is 'Why?' One rule of thumb is to always keep the digits tickety-boo, wipe down habitually, and oil only when it seriously looks like it's time to do it. Noted - that people in colder climbs have seasonal justification, especially before the onset of winter. No such thing as winter here. Not a problem.
Things are going along swimmingly with the Les Paul (and the Superjazz and the PJ - I'm pretty big on rosewood, just quietly - starting to think this may not be such a good idea
) - it's a thirty something year old guitar now, that I've had for over twenty years. The neck has not budged, EVER. So, it all seems pretty cut and dried to me - remember I'm only doing what I was told - if you don't go overboard, and you do it right, more or less, It really doesn't hurt to do it. In fact, I think it does exactly what it's meant to do. No worries.
Lastly, regarding environmental moisture levels and humidity: I don't think any treatment's going to turn back that tide entirely. I've learnt that ambient humidity is going to complete the equation in a wooden instrument's formulation, no matter what, so the best way to accommodate that reality is to make the instrument in the very same environment where it will be living. I say this because I was once asked where I would be living. Interesting question, no? Struck me that way.
I lived on the East coast and had no plans for a change of scenery. Apparently though, if I was going to live inland, away from the coast, in a radically different environment, the woods used in my guitar would've been treated very differently, before the build.
Could it be that, if I was to be a desert dweller, the Maestro was going to synthesize a desert climate? In hindsight, I believe so. Whatever the case, for my money, he chose wisely. I now have all the evidence I need. (Still, no clue, really
These people, who make these instruments, are unfathomable freaks - always passionate and perpetually inquisitive.) Thanks again everyone, for all the insights.
[Edit] NB: If you have any crazing on a finish, or any other damage where the surface of the wood may be exposed, best not to use lemon oil on that. The oil will probably get in under the varnish and things could get a little ugly.
It's Interesting that the mineral oil referred to in Poncherello's link ↑, is used in ↑ as a LAXATIVE! Wouldn't that give you the sh!ts. Coincidence? I think not. I do think good 'lemon' oil is pretty much the same stuff, with a little added 'smellnice,' but perhaps not food grade smellnice. I wouldn't use it as a laxative, just to be sure
You can see the ins and outs of it described here, in a "JOINT FAO/WHO EXPERT COMMITTEE ON FOOD ADDITIVES" report from 2012, where it's listed as a food additive. It's actually used as a lubricant for moving parts in food prep machines and the like, if I'm not mistaken. Good to know it's not harmful ' though the fine print is 'interesting.' (Boring, boring! I know). Meanwhile…
Mineral oil's most salient feature, at least where its use on raw wooden surfaces is concerned, is that it is pretty much inert. Most pointedly, it's not gonna rot. This is particularly good news for people who like to put wooden instruments in their mouths, and don't they know it!
Organic acids, which are often a naturally occurring, stench-laden byproduct of decay - a mishmash of rotting organic matter, like branches, leaves, and other plant and animal matter - are a genuine, corrosive threat to just about anything. One organic acid, humic acid, for example, can, over time and with a little help from the heavens, drill holes through solid rock. Huge holes.
Water, rotting organic matter, and humic acid, created a natural pool here - now it's a waterfall called the Link Removed.
If this kind of chemical process is going on, even on a very small scale, on a fingerboard, or anywhere else, there will no doubt be trouble, over time. Maybe this is the real benefit with something like mineral oil. It can virtually shut down the natural processes of decay, in many ways, cleaning away and nullifying all the gremlins and other dirty rotten nasties in the process.
When I asked my luthier friend, a great man, how I should clean his heavy metal masterpiece, he just handed me a bottle of lemon oil - bless 'im. Little else was said. The subject was 'cleaning.' He said I could treat the whole thing with it too - I was mainly concerned with the fretboard but still, I had to ask - it's a Les Paul copy with a lovely nitro finish. I had no idea, back then, no confidence what-so-ever - and I'm still learning. (OP's thread's going along swimmingly.
Everything's subjective but that's cool.)I think he told me not to do it too often, and not to use too much. I promptly forgot this and probably oiled the thing a little too often for the first little while. Too much love is not a good thing, sometimes - still, no ill effects. And I've wised up just a tad since then.
I imagine, if you don't use too much oil, you might be able to do it more often but, always, the question to ask yourself is 'Why?' One rule of thumb is to always keep the digits tickety-boo, wipe down habitually, and oil only when it seriously looks like it's time to do it. Noted - that people in colder climbs have seasonal justification, especially before the onset of winter. No such thing as winter here. Not a problem.
Things are going along swimmingly with the Les Paul (and the Superjazz and the PJ - I'm pretty big on rosewood, just quietly - starting to think this may not be such a good idea
) - it's a thirty something year old guitar now, that I've had for over twenty years. The neck has not budged, EVER. So, it all seems pretty cut and dried to me - remember I'm only doing what I was told - if you don't go overboard, and you do it right, more or less, It really doesn't hurt to do it. In fact, I think it does exactly what it's meant to do. No worries.Lastly, regarding environmental moisture levels and humidity: I don't think any treatment's going to turn back that tide entirely. I've learnt that ambient humidity is going to complete the equation in a wooden instrument's formulation, no matter what, so the best way to accommodate that reality is to make the instrument in the very same environment where it will be living. I say this because I was once asked where I would be living. Interesting question, no? Struck me that way.
I lived on the East coast and had no plans for a change of scenery. Apparently though, if I was going to live inland, away from the coast, in a radically different environment, the woods used in my guitar would've been treated very differently, before the build.
Could it be that, if I was to be a desert dweller, the Maestro was going to synthesize a desert climate? In hindsight, I believe so. Whatever the case, for my money, he chose wisely. I now have all the evidence I need. (Still, no clue, really
These people, who make these instruments, are unfathomable freaks - always passionate and perpetually inquisitive.) Thanks again everyone, for all the insights.[Edit] NB: If you have any crazing on a finish, or any other damage where the surface of the wood may be exposed, best not to use lemon oil on that. The oil will probably get in under the varnish and things could get a little ugly.
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