Hey, you're the one who said that any big name band has no musical integrity! Big claim mate!!
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Opinion on Gene Simmons
- Thread starter twdavis13
- Start date
Hey, you're the one who said that any big name band has no musical integrity! Big claim mate!!
I thought we were talking about GENE SIMMONS here, NOT the chili peppers and Rick Rubin!
If you wanna discuss this further, I'm sure some people would love to join you in ANOTHER THREAD!!
FINALLY someone sees where I'm coming from here. Thanks a lot.
And yeah, this is probably best continued in a new thread.
I first had any conception of what a bass was because Gene Simmons played one. There are so many groovy basslines and memorable songs in KISS's early records, and when my dad took me to see them when I was 11, I saw them working their butts off for 2 hours. Integrity? Certainly to making sure I was entertained and blown away.
AND he inspired me to pick up the bass, which has taken my ears all over the world.
Sure got my money's worth.
AND he inspired me to pick up the bass, which has taken my ears all over the world.
Sure got my money's worth.
I saw a music documentary series years ago called "Dancing in the Street". They had KISS for one episode and they explained how in high school during lunch they'd plan and construct models of the biggest rock show they could imagine. It was pretty cool to see how that became a reality for them over time. Good or not, they had a plan right from the start and to this day continue to follow it through, and I respect that.
Listen here buddy!!!I've been called a lot of things, but NEVER has anyone called me a... oh.... nevermind!
Remind me never to compliment you again, Slick.
Quote me on how you could interpret that from anything I posted, please :scowl:And anyone making a CD or a recording or playing a gig where you get paid any money (including bsuking) must be selling out, of course
Bands are selling a product. The successful ones do whatever it takes. The two you invoked know this, do this and admit they 'sold out' from the very moment they sold their music (be it EP, LP, gig, merchandise).
Don't attempt to believe anyone really has 'integrity'. It's ephereal. It doesn't truly exist.
Clearly we agree to disagree. You don't believe musical integrity exists, I clearly do (in the sense of being true to one's artistic self - look up the definition of integrity if you don't understand) and we aren't going to change anyone's opinion on that. If you'd like to carry the conversation to another thread you're more than welcome, but out of respect to those who want to discuss Gene Simmons (as a few have now complained, and I have apologised) we should end the discussion in this thread here.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that every band that you see on TV and hear on the radio (or for that matter, tried to get a gig at their local music hall or drinking establishment) has done things with their music that they didn't want to do in the name of making money. One likes to believe in the freedom of music, but glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity.
im glad you mentioned that because when i first got into kiss, the first song i wanted to learn was detroit rock city. i was so excited because i listened to it in the car, and i could hear the bassline. well, i got home and thats another story. the triplet flurry is actually quite tricky. i first got a basic part of it down in one day, it sounded like crap. i've been practicing it from then almost 4 months, and i can FINALLY simultaneausly run around like gene simmons, AND play the triplet flurry sightlessly. its REALLY fun now that i know how to play it right.
Gene Simmons ..KISS in general is one of the main reasons I got into music .... In fact one of the first difficult songs I ever mastered was KISS Black Diamond (keep in mind I was 13)
I hear he doesn't play a lot of bass on the albums ... Is that true? I saw him (and KISS) when they came to town a few years back ... Sad to say .. he couldn't play Detroit Rock City. He left almost everything out (I had real goods seats and was paying particular attention). IMO I play that song way better than Gene does on stage ... and I also sing the lead vocals!
But still I'm a huge fan ... and I don't play and sing dressed in costumes ... so all's forgiven
I hear he doesn't play a lot of bass on the albums ... Is that true? I saw him (and KISS) when they came to town a few years back ... Sad to say .. he couldn't play Detroit Rock City. He left almost everything out (I had real goods seats and was paying particular attention). IMO I play that song way better than Gene does on stage ... and I also sing the lead vocals!
But still I'm a huge fan ... and I don't play and sing dressed in costumes ... so all's forgiven
OK, so just so there is not any confusion...
I believe that there are many musicians out there who have integrity and want to play their music with no compromises and never having to kiss ass at any time. Any musicians who get anywhere with their music on a monetary level have had moments where they have compromised and kissed ass, whether it's being forced to work with someone they didn't want to work with, or being told that their new songs suck and they're calling in a co-writer for you, or a member of the band not being allowed to write songs or stand on the front part of the stage, or whatever. At every level of the game, there are people trying to get you to do things you don't want to do and they'll put pressure on you to bend to their will. Your belief that it's possible to avoid it and do exactly what you want at every step of the way with no compromising or ass kissing means you have no clue how the music business works, and no clue how many BS artists and power trippers are running things.
I believe that there are many musicians out there who have integrity and want to play their music with no compromises and never having to kiss ass at any time. Any musicians who get anywhere with their music on a monetary level have had moments where they have compromised and kissed ass, whether it's being forced to work with someone they didn't want to work with, or being told that their new songs suck and they're calling in a co-writer for you, or a member of the band not being allowed to write songs or stand on the front part of the stage, or whatever. At every level of the game, there are people trying to get you to do things you don't want to do and they'll put pressure on you to bend to their will. Your belief that it's possible to avoid it and do exactly what you want at every step of the way with no compromising or ass kissing means you have no clue how the music business works, and no clue how many BS artists and power trippers are running things.
Mate, you're going by your experience and knowledge of the music industry, and I from mine. If kissing arse is the way you do things, then all the more power to you.
You see, I'm saying there are both elements and all different shades of grey in between that exist in the music industry. You're merely saying all bands making money have sold out any artistic integrity they had, and that those who aren't part of the music industry must have integrity, because they have no ambition to make a career out of it. That's a pretty narrow view to cling to. But hey, I'm not here to change your mind, I'm just making discussion.
What's your take on independent artists who have made it big? How and where's their compromise when they don't have a record company to answer to, who manage themselves?
You see, I'm saying there are both elements and all different shades of grey in between that exist in the music industry. You're merely saying all bands making money have sold out any artistic integrity they had, and that those who aren't part of the music industry must have integrity, because they have no ambition to make a career out of it. That's a pretty narrow view to cling to. But hey, I'm not here to change your mind, I'm just making discussion.
What's your take on independent artists who have made it big? How and where's their compromise when they don't have a record company to answer to, who manage themselves?
So you don't think they have to kiss a lot of butts to get their albums in stores and book gigs where they can sell albums after the gig? Or to get the money it takes to record an album? Or to get people to buy them? Seriously, you can't be that naive.
Since you brought up your experiences in the music industry, what are your experiences? Do you play gigs for money? Are you making a decent living with it? Are you doing exactly what you want at all times without compromise and or having to be nice to people you think are morons but could help you achieve your goal?
What all that has to do with artistic integrity, I have no idea. You're talking about the business side now, and not the part that is remotely attached to the part that involves composition. Which was the whole point of the discussion in the first place.
I could equally ask you your experience. Ok, so about me. I don't deal with the business side of things, so the people I think are morons I simply ignore. I don't make any money; what money is made goes back into the band to finance things like the band room we hire, or the sound engineer who's currently mixing our album (and yes, we're telling him exactly how we want it, and yes he is an industry professional), or the filmclip we've got in the pipeline. I've made a decent living from it in the past, playing covers and in a corporate band but I moved interstate and now only play originals as that's all I want to do, it gives me great satisfaction. A tour has come up but I don't want to do some of the shows as the travel means it takes me far from other things I have going on so I've said I won't do the shows. In a nutshell, yes I am doing what I want. People respect you when you back yourself; they tend not to respect you when you're a lapdog.
Now I've taken the bait and ventured part of my story, it's only fair you do the same. I'd like to know why you think there's only one approach, and that is to suck up to people to get what you want. Why? As surely as people are creative with music, people are creative in business. I've known people to get $1k guarantees for gigs, sight unseen to the venue owner and no sucking up involved, just fantastic business skills. Just because you can't seem to see more than one method doesn't mean that's the only method.
I could equally ask you your experience. Ok, so about me. I don't deal with the business side of things, so the people I think are morons I simply ignore. I don't make any money; what money is made goes back into the band to finance things like the band room we hire, or the sound engineer who's currently mixing our album (and yes, we're telling him exactly how we want it, and yes he is an industry professional), or the filmclip we've got in the pipeline. I've made a decent living from it in the past, playing covers and in a corporate band but I moved interstate and now only play originals as that's all I want to do, it gives me great satisfaction. A tour has come up but I don't want to do some of the shows as the travel means it takes me far from other things I have going on so I've said I won't do the shows. In a nutshell, yes I am doing what I want. People respect you when you back yourself; they tend not to respect you when you're a lapdog.
Now I've taken the bait and ventured part of my story, it's only fair you do the same. I'd like to know why you think there's only one approach, and that is to suck up to people to get what you want. Why? As surely as people are creative with music, people are creative in business. I've known people to get $1k guarantees for gigs, sight unseen to the venue owner and no sucking up involved, just fantastic business skills. Just because you can't seem to see more than one method doesn't mean that's the only method.
Having said all that, I feel this discussion is getting worn out. Neither of us is going to change the other's point of view, all we're doing is justifying our own whilst attempting to discredit the other, which isn't very constructive conversation. We can go around in circles but it achieves nothing. So I'm willing to let it rest if you are, as I for one am getting over it. Peace out bro.
He was a member a KISS and that's his only saving grace. I'm not a fan of but they must've done something right to get such huge a fan bass. He spoke at UF, a while back and bunch of my friends went. I considered going, but decided to drink beers with my boys and relax. The few friends that did go came back completely disenfranchised. What could've been a relatively small group of people listening to one man recount stories from what must've been an interesting life turned out to be an infomercial for all KISS branded products and lectures on how rich he was. Reminds me of how Tom Morello (supposed uber-socialist) would only autograph products bought from his booth at the last Lalapalooza I went to. I stood in line for an hour before I realized I had to buy one of his tiny $10 dollar posters before receiving his mark. I didn't of course and ended up scamming a bunch of free shirts from those Truth commercial ******** (I'm a smoker, cough). I made up for his selling out by being extra subversive that night. On the bright side, Jurassic 5 was mingling with the audience between their sets, no security, just talking to "regular people". There are still some artists out there who are in it for the music and their fans. They just don't get reality shows on MTV.
I used to really despise KISS and especially Gene. I have a co-worker who is a major KISS fan and a bass player. He pointed out some of his better bass parts to me and I have to admit that he's better than I thought.
I will never own any KISS recordings but I will give credit where its due.
I will never own any KISS recordings but I will give credit where its due.
