Double Bass Optimal angle for Laborie/Rabbath endpin

[maxime.levesque]

Hi, I have bent the metal endpin of my bass to try the Rabbat technique and I'm linking it.

I am however unsure of the optimal angle for me. I have read that 44 degree is the "recommended" angle,

I however think that there cannot be a universaly "optimal" angle, but that it should vary with the height of the player.

Here is my geometrical reasonning, first I will define two angles :

F: the angle of the fingerboard relative to the axis of gravity (the line that is at 90 degrees to the ground) when the bass is in equilibrium

E: the angle of the endpin relative to the bass


The problem with prescribing a universaly good angle is that
with a bent endpin, the longer the endpin, the wider the angle F will be. For example, if a bent endpin is 1 centimetre (for a very short player),
the angle F will be almost the same as with a straight one. At the other extreme, if the bent endpin was 1 meter in length (a giant player),
then the angle F would be very wide. In both cases the angle of the endpin would be the same, but the angle F would vary wildly.

It seems that there can be a universaly good angle F (with a margin to accomodate personal preferences), but not so for the angle E.

From the above reasoning, it would follow that the angle E (of the pin) should be derived from the height of the player and the desired angle F.


Thanks !

 

[Feral Feline]

You might have better luck posting this in the DB section. Not many slabbers will know what or who Laborie and Rabbath are; they're more concerned with strap lengths.

 

[iiipopes]

PM the mods. They will move the thread for you.

 

[maxime.levesque]

Hmm, I hesitated while choosing the right forum, there are so many to chose from, yet, none seem to quite fit my endpin question... I will repost it...

You might have better luck posting this in the DB section. Not many slabbers will know what or who Laborie and Rabbath are; they're more concerned with strap lengths.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

A bent metal endpin coming out of the regular endpin socket does not have the same effect on balancing the bass as a Laborie pin coming out at an angle starting closer to the back of the bass. You'll find many players using different lengths and angles depending upon their bass and their own physical characteristics. Rabbath has his at 44º straight back, but this is not universally accepted as the only way to use this style of endpin.

 

[maxime.levesque]

Eric, that is what I'm discovering while playing with my bent metal endpin. I also tried a slight sideway angle and I'm liking it so far. I will be experimenting with angle variations and
when I find one that is the best compromise I will add a tilt block attached to my bass. I'm coming to the conclusion that there are no universally good angle,
and for that reason, it makes sense to use a tilt block and not drill into the bass block until you are really settled on an angle. I'm finding that a bent metal endpin is nice for experimenting
with many angles, but I dont like the elasticity, the bass bounces when I move my left had quickly, and when I make a vibrato.

A bent metal endpin coming out of the regular endpin socket does not have the same effect on balancing the bass as a Laborie pin coming out at an angle starting closer to the back of the bass. You'll find many players using different lengths and angles depending upon their bass and their own physical characteristics. Rabbath has his at 44º straight back, but this is not universally accepted as the only way to use this style of endpin.

 

[MikeCanada]

As Eric mentioned, the distribution of weight/balance is going to be different with a bent pin instead of a Laborie pin. As such you might find an angle that works for you for the bent pin, but translating that into the Laborie pin might not yield the results you are hoping for.

KC Strings sells a tilt block blank with no holes drilled in what they call a Rabbath or Seaton Style, and Upton offers a Rabbath or Vance block as an upgrade on new Upton basses, and it appears that they do not sell them separately or install them on existing basses; you would have to contact them as I'm just speculating based on their website. Although I am not overly familiar with drilling a Laborie hole or using the tilt blocks, I would think that the tilt block would allow you to accomplish the same thing, could be used permanently, would be less invasive than drilling the bass, and that would make the instrument an easier sell down the road. Maybe one of our luthier friends with experience with either/both could explain if that train of thought is completely wrong, if the additional mass of the tilt block would be an issue, or if I am forgetting a few other variables.

In regards to your original math, how the instrument balances is also a big part of the equation. It has been too long since I have taken physics or geometry and it hurts my brain to try to figure out what you would have to do to achieve a similar balance with a constant F angle at different heights. I was always under the impression one of the benefits of the Laborie pin was that it reduced the amount of weight on your left thumb while allowing you to position your bass at a greater angle, but it does stand to reason that a short pin would have a different outcome in comparison to a long one, or if you were to play sitting and standing, a different length of pin and angle(s) would be required to provide the same balance.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I was going to delete this, but a user made a useful reply and I can't remember how to merge threads on the XF software. Anyone remember how to do it?

 

[maxime.levesque]

Mike, I will a spreadsheet for myself to do the computation for translating the angle and length of my bent pin to the angle and length of the tilt bloc hole and Laborie endpin.
If there is some interest I'll publish the google spreadsheet

As Eric mentioned, the distribution of weight/balance is going to be different with a bent pin instead of a Laborie pin. As such you might find an angle that works for you for the bent pin, but translating that into the Laborie pin might not yield the results you are hoping for.

KC Strings sells a tilt block blank with no holes drilled in what they call a Rabbath or Seaton Style, and Upton offers a Rabbath or Vance block as an upgrade on new Upton basses, and it appears that they do not sell them separately or install them on existing basses; you would have to contact them as I'm just speculating based on their website. Although I am not overly familiar with drilling a Laborie hole or using the tilt blocks, I would think that the tilt block would allow you to accomplish the same thing, could be used permanently, would be less invasive than drilling the bass, and that would make the instrument an easier sell down the road. Maybe one of our luthier friends with experience with either/both could explain if that train of thought is completely wrong, if the additional mass of the tilt block would be an issue, or if I am forgetting a few other variables.

In regards to your original math, how the instrument balances is also a big part of the equation. It has been too long since I have taken physics or geometry and it hurts my brain to try to figure out what you would have to do to achieve a similar balance with a constant F angle at different heights. I was always under the impression one of the benefits of the Laborie pin was that it reduced the amount of weight on your left thumb while allowing you to position your bass at a greater angle, but it does stand to reason that a short pin would have a different outcome in comparison to a long one, or if you were to play sitting and standing, a different length of pin and angle(s) would be required to provide the same balance.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Hi, I`m no expert but did bend my endpin a couple of months ago. I had a change to risk the pin for trial and error. I started with app 44 degree angle and somewhat Garcia Fons kind of stance and after tweaking the pin twice ( bending it back straight and then again lower and with smaller angle ) more I found a good in between -solution. Now I have it with smaller angle, the angle somewhere between straight and bent endpin ( allthough more the bent shape ), pointing straight back and when the upper bout rests against the side of my lower belly the nut is at level with my eyebrows. It`s not as hardcore as a Rabbath endpin but it frees both of my hands and makes moving up and down the fingerboard easier. Definently makes a difference!

EDIT: I`m average size guy with average size bass. I`ve read that bigger the bass / shorter player / less benefit from the bent endpin.

Quoted here because thread was double posted. This reply is from the other thread, which has been closed.

 

[Reiska]

Many thanks! However, I don`t really know if I`m only confusing the OP there or really giving answers to the question at all but can`t praise praise bent endpin enough. It really works for me!

 

[bejoyous]

I'm a big fan of the 180 degree angle of the endpin; the bass always moves and rotates exactly as I expect it will.

 

[maxime.levesque]

LOL ! Then you must try the 360 angle, the problem with the 180 is that you must find a way to fit the rubber tip inside the bass ;-)

I'm a big fan of the 180 degree angle of the endpin; the bass always moves and rotates exactly as I expect it will.

 

[bejoyous]

Ha, good one.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm selling an eggpin with a 1 1/8" opening to attach to the socket in the classifieds if anyone is interested.