You might want to go back and read the OP. Specifically here is the first sentence:
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Double Bass Orchestra behind beat?
- Thread starter Andy Mopley
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You might want to go back and read the OP. Specifically here is the first sentence:
He is often working with only part of the story. He knows a lot and and at the end of the day he can really be summed up as always coming off as a young guy who knows a lot - all the good and all the bad that fact ends up meaning.
He off to a great start and his work is ultimately a positive force in the world. Still, it is a mistake to take him as an "authority" on anything other than bass guitar technique and advanced theory. He has way too much going on to write off, but, we need to take him for what he is.
As he gains more experience in the world that will change. This video is prime example. To break this situation with any accuracy down he'd need a lot more experience than one recording session and a couple glances at YouTube!
sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant it was weird in the video to leap from a string quartet to the conductor, not weird of this conversation on here
Oh definitely - As I've said, I really like Neely, and watch his youtube channel. This is very clearly an older video of his.
"Why does it seem like the orchestra is playing behind the conductor’s beat?"
Because they are. It's not unusual. Assuming they are playing together and it sounds okay, you can assume the conductor is okay with it, and/or prefers it that way. If it's a clusterf***, the conductor is screwing up, and/or the band is inexperienced in following such conductors. Of course, some conductors put the beat exactly where they want it, or where they think they want it. A conductor should always be careful what they ask for.
Because they are. It's not unusual. Assuming they are playing together and it sounds okay, you can assume the conductor is okay with it, and/or prefers it that way. If it's a clusterf***, the conductor is screwing up, and/or the band is inexperienced in following such conductors. Of course, some conductors put the beat exactly where they want it, or where they think they want it. A conductor should always be careful what they ask for.
- Jan 24, 2002
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In my own experience, those kinds of triplet quarter notes or half notes tend to be wonky in classical ensembles -- even professional ones. Same story with quintuplets.
While the video is massively over-generalized, I actually agree with the larger point that classical training tends to under-emphasize strict rhythmic precision. That's especially true for string players, and doubly so for singers. That has a lot to do with the standard repertoire we're trained with, where complex or tricky rhythms are uncommon and not a major feature of the music. We place much more value on tone quality and phrasing, and having a somewhat elastic sense of time is actually essential for much of the classic repertoire to function.
It's a big jump for most classically trained musicians to play other genres, including most contemporary classical music (which often does feature complex rhythms and precise timing). And as for the original question, in most contemporary classical ensembles (mine included) it is essential to play exactly with the conductor's stick.
I've gotten so used to that, in fact, that when I do play with orchestras it always takes me a few minutes to stop playing "ahead" of the beat.
I´m playing with a crossover ensemble, we (try to) play as well classical music with flexible timing as modern genres like e.g. daft punk or jazz oriented music with locked timing. There is no drummer, and it is a great joy and a nightmare at the same to nail it as bass player. But without a drummer it becomes really obvious how much every single instrument is responsible for a nice groove. I´m much more jazz oriented and it took me some years to feel more comfortable with flexible time feel. Switching between the two approaches still is a challenge.
I sometimes find myself having conversations about rhythm with my brother, who plays guitar, bass guitar and keyboard in a lot of groups in various genres mostly involving drumbeats and sometimes with variously compound metre. Quite often we mention elasticity/slackness/proximity to beat issues and wonder to what degree their prevalence within classical music is a conscious or unconscious phenomenon.
I reckon a lack of conscious choice of approach can always read really badly to an audience on some kind of subconscious level, and I would also say that one doesn’t need to be a master in a particular field to sense a lack of focus in a performance, even if the issue can’t be specified using technical language.
I have for sure heard individuals whom I consider very able musicians kind of humble brag about how they can’t understand what’s going on when it comes to rhythmic issues in contemporary pieces. Possibly as a means of leveraging status, through inverse snobbery? Strength of weakness? I’m not sure. Perhaps it doesn’t matter what one is signalling as long as one’s analysis of one’s failure or success puts one’s ego in the driving seat.
I think the more the goal is ‘musician who plays bass’, the more likely it is that more facets of musicianship end up being explored, and any fear of failing becomes accordingly minimised in time. Or at least you can laugh it off when stuff does go wrong. Because sometimes, that’s about the only way of coping. Behind the beat, on top of the beat, under the stage desperately looking at a tv monitor for the beat, or wherever else.
I reckon a lack of conscious choice of approach can always read really badly to an audience on some kind of subconscious level, and I would also say that one doesn’t need to be a master in a particular field to sense a lack of focus in a performance, even if the issue can’t be specified using technical language.
I have for sure heard individuals whom I consider very able musicians kind of humble brag about how they can’t understand what’s going on when it comes to rhythmic issues in contemporary pieces. Possibly as a means of leveraging status, through inverse snobbery? Strength of weakness? I’m not sure. Perhaps it doesn’t matter what one is signalling as long as one’s analysis of one’s failure or success puts one’s ego in the driving seat.
I think the more the goal is ‘musician who plays bass’, the more likely it is that more facets of musicianship end up being explored, and any fear of failing becomes accordingly minimised in time. Or at least you can laugh it off when stuff does go wrong. Because sometimes, that’s about the only way of coping. Behind the beat, on top of the beat, under the stage desperately looking at a tv monitor for the beat, or wherever else.
This could have something to do with the size of the ensemble. A large symphony orchestra will respond differently to the conductor than a small chamber orchestra. I think this is probably necessitated by some of the factors I mentioned here: Orchestra behind beat? In other words, the cumulative timing errors essentially require that the ensemble play a bit late so all of the timing errors have room to work out.
In my experience, large brass ensembles tend to play even further behind than symphony orchestras. Most of my training was in a symphony orchestra but I worked in a concert band and it took me quite awhile to get used to how far back they placed the beat.
Over my career the instrumentalists with the best time and feel have generally been pianist, both classical and jazz.
In my experience classical musicians interpret time strictly, but accomplished players can become skilled in backphrasing/rubato.
Jazz is a bit more complicated because interpretation of the triplet is a moving target. Earlier in my career we used to talk about East coast VS West coast feel. Now many younger musicians influenced by hiphop tend to wind the triplet so tight that it is almost pushed to straight time. Makes it really hard to play a boogie or shuffle bass line. So no, I don't agree that jazz musicians have better time, at least not here in the US.
My entire career was spent working with both types of musicians doing their best to exist in both worlds. This was a requirement of our jobs. In my experience people tend to excel in their speciality and have trouble understanding and fitting the area they do not specialize in. Essentially a jazzer will struggle to play with appropriate phrasing and rhythmic accuracy in a classical style, and a classical specialist will have the same problems playing jazz. It's not fair or accurate to say one is better than the other, because they both tend to suck equally when tasked outside of their specialty. Keep in mind this is a generalized statement. There are certainly individuals who are the exception to the rule.
Over the years I have worked with a few(very few) fiddle players(violinists-even the orch players call themselves fiddlers unless they take themselves too seriously) who were good jazz players. They are among those who are competent in both worlds but they are a very small number. Many try but few succeed. Among those was a guy who actually played viola in the orch but was a very good jazz player- knew tunes and could swing. He sounded very much like a tenor sax.
Classical training doesn’t emphasize strict rhythmic precision? Tell that to musicians who have to perform stuff by Stravinsky, Bartok, Ravel, and Schoenberg regularly. I came to classical music from a rock/pop/jazz/folk background and have to disagree. Try playing the bass part in a live performance of West Side Story or Candide.
Whether the audience perceives the orchestra as being in sync with the conductor or not is irrelevant. It’s the sound they hear and it’s got to be rhythmically precise or it all falls apart. There are many musicians inside (and outside) of classical music who struggle to keep good time without a click track in their headphones.
Oh, and I particularly resent the slam on string players having a questionable rhythmic sense exceeded only by singers. Talk about stereotypes. Bass players are string players too by the way.
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We had Tovey for 18 years. He was popular.
When the winter Olympics were here in 2010 the Olympic committee wanted the VSO to record the opening ceremonies but another conductor and musicians would mime the performance for tv. Tovey had the jam to decline, remarking it was dishonest and fraudulent. The orchestra agreed and so do I.
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The issue is twofold. The physical separation of an orchestra means it's very difficult to be exactly in time by ear. Secondly, when tempi vary and the conductor is pushing or pulling, its almost impossible to know exactly where the downbeat is until you have actually seen the bottom of the beat. That means if you try to play ON the beat you will be either early or late, with no way of knowing which. If you play slightly after the beat, and you know as an ensemble how much, you can all be in time. It's a great exercise for an orchestra to vary how far behind you play. Anywhere from 1/16th note to a whole bar. Try it!
Take care, Neil - btw the orchestra sounds fantastic! but that's not because you are not there
)))
I know of one pro first chair who tapped a foot nearly all the time so that the rest of the orchestra could follow time reliably. Of course this is a big no-no in most cases...
The conductor was well loved and respected by the orchestra for many reasons, but not for his ability to keep time. This was also known among many in the audience.
This was a smaller city orchestra, but the conductor was known by name and drew good audiences because of his notoriety, so he played a valuable and important role for the orchestra and the organization behind it. This conductor has retired and I haven't seen the orchestra perform since then, but I'd guess that the first chair no longer needs to tap a foot.
Long and the short if it, there are good reasons to have a conductor whether that person can keep time or not, and there are pragmatic ways to work around many problems.
The conductor was well loved and respected by the orchestra for many reasons, but not for his ability to keep time. This was also known among many in the audience.
This was a smaller city orchestra, but the conductor was known by name and drew good audiences because of his notoriety, so he played a valuable and important role for the orchestra and the organization behind it. This conductor has retired and I haven't seen the orchestra perform since then, but I'd guess that the first chair no longer needs to tap a foot.
Long and the short if it, there are good reasons to have a conductor whether that person can keep time or not, and there are pragmatic ways to work around many problems.
May I have a small dig at those classical players who not only don't understand, hear or feel "that moment in time" to place an entry (pizz or arco) but don't have the technique to make quite make it happen. They are lots of fun
to play beside.
to play beside.There's another thread on TB right now that's discussing playing out a certain book of jazz tunes, and my take has been that there's too much emphasis on reading as opposed to listening. One of my pet peeves about my section and the orchestra in general is the almost total focus on what's on the paper to the detriment of listening to what's being played and watching the conductor. I've come to believe that people in general are so accustomed to reading and concentrating so much on sight that hearing is becoming less important. Like I said in the other post- strictly my opinion, I'm old.May I have a small dig at those classical players who not only don't understand, hear or feel "that moment in time" to place an entry (pizz or arco) but don't have the technique to make quite make it happen. They are lots of fun
I think your missing the point entirely. An symphony orchestra is so big that there are times that the musicians simply cannot rely on your ears. That does not mean that orchestra musicians don't and shouldn't rely on their ears.
Most of the time the should be using both their eyes and ears. But there are definitely times when one or the other must take priority. It takes a highly skilled musician with the flexibility and presence of mind to adapt to a continuously changing environment.
There are times when you must play entirely on the stick and take it on faith that the sound is coming together in time out front of the ensemble. I can say from experience that it can be extremely unnerving, and takes skill and discipline.
What I'm saying is that too often the only thing that players are focusing is the printed page and nothing or very little else. We obviously need flexibility of focus but my contention is that too often focus on the page takes over to too great an extent. Simple as that.
