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Double Bass Orchestra behind beat?

What I'm saying is that too often the only thing that players are focusing is the printed page and nothing or very little else. We obviously need flexibility of focus but my contention is that too often focus on the page takes over to too great an extent. Simple as that.

I think there is some truth to your position, but I think you may be over blowing the pervasiveness of the problem, especially among serious professional musicians. Or perhaps I was just blessed to play mostly with competent musicians.

A person who only plays what is on the page is more of a musical technician than a musician. I know people like that and they tend to play with great precision and skill, but the music is dull, lifeless, and mechanical because their is no interpretation.

IMHO, the term "musical technician" does not apply to most skilled musicians just because they are reading a classical piece or a jazz lead sheet.

IMHO jazz and classical musicians tend to have different musical priorities and different ways of thinking about music. In my experience classical musicians tend to prioritize tone and phrasing, but they generally don't have any concept about improvising melody on the spot.

Based on the assumptions you have expressed, classical musicians would all play rather mechanically simply because they are reading music. But in my experience, on average the best classically focused musicians can leverage tone, articulation, and phrasing to play a written melody far more expressively than the best jazz musicians.

IMHO this interpretation of melody is really just a different form of improvisation, and it tends to be a top priority for classical musicians. IMHO true jazzers tend to prioritize melodic improvisation and memorization above pretty much everything else, and other aspects of their musicality suffer as a results; especially tone in many instances.

Likewise, just because a person is reading a jazz lead sheet does not mean they are not drawing on their experience and interpreting the page. I do agree that an experienced authentic jazzer should be able to play without the lead sheet as that is really an expectation of jazz culture.

I have quite a bit of experience playing jazz, but I do not consider myself an authentic jazz musician. I would also say that I play jazz at a much higher level than most classical specialists, but that's not saying much. I also play classical at a much higher level than most jazz specialists, which is also not saying much ;).

I am reasonably confident that memorizing a tune would not magically allow me to play jazz at the same level that you do. In fact there are several standards in the Real Book that I could probably still play from memory, even though I prefer having the page in front of me. I feel playing jazz standards from memory is very limiting personally, because all of my mental focus must be placed on keeping my place instead of interpreting the music and playing freely using my normal mental processes. If my goal was to be an authentic jazz musician, I would try to push past the discomfort. But I am more of a jack of all trades and enjoy playing classical, funk, rock, jazz, etc rather than specializing. I am not sure I have the natural aptitude to memorize and hold a bunch of jazz standards in my head, but I do work on it a bit.

I've known many musicians who put significant effort into trying to memorize and maintain the Real Book repertoire, with very limited success. You never see the cats who can do it working on it. So I suspect natural ability is a significant factor that should not be discounted.
 
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I think there is some truth to your position, but I think you may be over blowing the pervasiveness of the problem, especially among serious professional musicians. Or perhaps I was just blessed to play mostly with competent musicians.

A person who only plays what is on the page is more of a musical technician than a musician. I know people like that and they tend to play with great precision and skill, but the music is dull, lifeless, and mechanical because their is no interpretation.

IMHO, the term "musical technician" does not apply to most skilled musicians just because they are reading a classical piece or a jazz lead sheet.
Okay. I respect your directness and opinion. I guess we'll leave it there.
IMHO jazz and classical musicians tend to have different musical priorities and different ways of thinking about music. In my experience classical musicians tend to prioritize tone and phrasing, but they generally don't have any concept about improvising melody on the spot.

Based on the assumptions you have expressed, classical musicians would all play rather mechanically simply because they are reading music. But in my experience, on average the best classically focused musicians can leverage tone, articulation, and phrasing to play a written melody far more expressively than the best jazz musicians.

IMHO this interpretation of melody is really just a different form of improvisation, and it tends to be a top priority for classical musicians. IMHO true jazzers tend to prioritize melodic improvisation and memorization above pretty much everything else, and other aspects of their musicality suffer as a results; especially tone in many instances.

Likewise, just because a person is reading a jazz lead sheet does not mean they are not drawing on their experience and interpreting the page. I do agree that an experienced authentic jazzer should be able to play without the lead sheet as that is really an expectation of jazz culture.

I have quite a bit of experience playing jazz, but I do not consider myself an authentic jazz musician. I would also say that I play jazz at a much higher level than most classical specialists, but that's not saying much. I also play classical at a much higher level than most jazz specialists, which is also not saying much ;).

I am reasonably confident that memorizing a tune would not magically allow me to play jazz at the same level that you do. In fact there are several standards in the Real Book that I could probably still play from memory, even though I prefer having the page in front of me. I feel playing jazz standards from memory is very limiting personally, because all of my mental focus must be placed on keeping my place instead of interpreting the music and playing freely using my normal mental processes. If my goal was to be an authentic jazz musician, I would try to push past the discomfort. But I am more of a jack of all trades and enjoy playing classical, funk, rock, jazz, etc rather than specializing. I am not sure I have the natural aptitude to memorize and hold a bunch of jazz standards in my head, but I do work on it a bit.

I've known many musicians who put significant effort into trying to memorize and maintain the Real Book repertoire, with very limited success. You never see the cats who can do it working on it. So I suspect natural ability is a significant factor that should not be discounted.
 
What I'm saying is that too often the only thing that players are focusing is the printed page and nothing or very little else. We obviously need flexibility of focus but my contention is that too often focus on the page takes over to too great an extent. Simple as that.
This is something that happens a lot in amateur orchestras. I've sat through many rehearsals filled with pleas to "Watch! Watch and listen! If you can't do both then watch!" In my opinion you're not in a position to perform a piece until you can get your eyes off the page regularly. Conductors are (should be!) there to help, but unless you can watch them they are useless.
 
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I know of one pro first chair who tapped a foot nearly all the time so that the rest of the orchestra could follow time reliably. Of course this is a big no-no in most cases...

The conductor was well loved and respected by the orchestra for many reasons, but not for his ability to keep time. This was also known among many in the audience.

This was a smaller city orchestra, but the conductor was known by name and drew good audiences because of his notoriety, so he played a valuable and important role for the orchestra and the organization behind it. This conductor has retired and I haven't seen the orchestra perform since then, but I'd guess that the first chair no longer needs to tap a foot.

Long and the short if it, there are good reasons to have a conductor whether that person can keep time or not, and there are pragmatic ways to work around many problems.

For me as a historical player, the funniest part of this is the most famous early "conductor" is Lully, who literally used a staff to stamp out the rhythm.

At some point we decided that it wasn't hip anymore.
 
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it was louder than the music? What else did he do with his body? I have been watching a lot of old performances by Gergiev, the famous Russian conductor, and wonder why his left hand flutters as he beats. Is this some form of dystonia or stroke aftermath? Also on the Qwerty (Quincy Jones) site is some remarkable footage , including orchestras conducted by Barenboim and Abbado (he is now my favourite) and early footage of the violinist, Yehudi Menuhin that will blow your mind (if you have time).
 
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I have been watching a lot of old performances by Gergiev, the famous Russian conductor, and wonder why his left hand flutters as he beats. Is this some form of dystonia or stroke aftermath?
I was wondering when Gergiev was going to be referenced.

36C38FE3-F67E-4FDA-9B3E-FAABDD1F8E98.jpeg
796CEA71-8301-4257-AAB5-FA0EFF5864E0.jpeg
 
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My first piano teacher told me about this story and oddly it stuck in my mind. She also has us memorize the Ut quent laxis chant so we would remember where those solfeggio names came from Do Re Mi....etc. I think chamber and especially Baroque orchestras stay with the pulse, mind you, you usually have one bass. (screw the cow bell, more basses) I don't know if the anecdote is true but Karajan when he went to guest conduct he would insist on taking not his concert master but his bass player. We hold the it together - as my old teacher used to say - we are the civil engineers of the orchestra........so a little more respect and a large raise is in order!
 
it was louder than the music? What else did he do with his body? I have been watching a lot of old performances by Gergiev, the famous Russian conductor, and wonder why his left hand flutters as he beats. Is this some form of dystonia or stroke aftermath? Also on the Qwerty (Quincy Jones) site is some remarkable footage , including orchestras conducted by Barenboim and Abbado (he is now my favourite) and early footage of the violinist, Yehudi Menuhin that will blow your mind (if you have time).
Abbado was special. He conducted the ECYO when I was a real musician, many years ago. Magical musician

I'm glad I never played under Gergiev. I like the results he gets, but even in the audience it's hard to watch, so I have no idea how the musicians cope
 
Again on Qwerty they showed Celibidache and the Berlin Philharmonic playing Bruckner 7. I found the same performance on Youtube. It is a very good example IMO of how exacting he was with the baton and of what a fantastic string sound they could generate, especially in the slow movement, with such clear directions.

Whew !!
 
We all get the ‘basses you are late’ from a conductor sooner or later. Be ready for it.

At my symphony rehearsal the other night I got the conductor’s laser eye. I’m the only bassist and we are playing Beethoven’s 5th second movement. The cellos do a pickup and I come in pizz on one, which I did. The conductor stopped everybody and said ‘Casey you are late. I’m looking right at you.’ Lol.

We started again.
My solution was to play the pizz Ab a millisecond ahead of one. And louder than piano. It worked.

F69375B2-D480-4064-9229-74AEBC05C4A4.jpeg
 
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We all get the ‘basses you are late’ from a conductor sooner or later. Be ready for it.

At my symphony rehearsal the other night I got the conductor’s laser eye. I’m the only bassist and we are playing Beethoven’s 5th second movement. The cellos do a pickup and I come in pizz on one, which I did. The conductor stopped everybody and said ‘Casey you are late. I’m looking right at you.’ Lol.

We started again.
My solution was to play the pizz Ab a millisecond ahead of one. And louder than piano. It worked.

View attachment 4421684


Perception rules here...you may have been perfectly in time with the conductor's ictus. Playing ahead of the beat can be the right answer, but IMHO hard to nail with this sort of entrance :thumbsup:.
 
We all get the ‘basses you are late’ from a conductor sooner or later. Be ready for it.

At my symphony rehearsal the other night I got the conductor’s laser eye. I’m the only bassist and we are playing Beethoven’s 5th second movement. The cellos do a pickup and I come in pizz on one, which I did. The conductor stopped everybody and said ‘Casey you are late. I’m looking right at you.’ Lol.

We started again.
My solution was to play the pizz Ab a millisecond ahead of one. And louder than piano. It worked.

View attachment 4421684
I know you didn't come in late!

Now these guys...are coming in late. (but together)

 
We all get the ‘basses you are late’ from a conductor sooner or later. Be ready for it.

At my symphony rehearsal the other night I got the conductor’s laser eye. I’m the only bassist and we are playing Beethoven’s 5th second movement. The cellos do a pickup and I come in pizz on one, which I did. The conductor stopped everybody and said ‘Casey you are late. I’m looking right at you.’ Lol.

We started again.
My solution was to play the pizz Ab a millisecond ahead of one. And louder than piano. It worked.

I too am the only bassist in my orchestra, but our conductor more often singles me out for being ahead of the beat! Maybe it's because I came from nonclassical genres, playing by ear?

My teacher has said that it's better to wait until the bow is properly set than to be overly concerned with a timely attack. I suspect that a better approach is to make sure the bow is properly set on time!

Casey, it may be that the "louder than piano" aspect of your response may be a big factor in fixing the problem. We can alter plucking velocity with loudness.
 
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