Double Bass Orchestra behind beat?

[Wasnex]

I am actually really surprised by the number of people that seem adamant that it's more important to use your ears (exclusively) than to watch the conductor. This is not my experience and perhaps this is part of the problem. There are several situations where it is essential to take time off the stick in a large ensemble. The propagation delay will make the timing of the music sound way off to the audience if you use your ears.

Conductors have a range of talent just like anyone else. I have worked with conductors who were incredible on the stand and could extract a beautiful performance out of a relatively unrehearsed band. They seemed to have a natural connection with the ensemble. Their motions were intuitive and easy to understand. They did not always beat out time, in fact often they did not. But there were times when they did, and they could be real tyrants, "WATCH THE STICK!" Sometimes it got ugly when sections refused and it took the whole band down. It's pretty embarrassing to have to start a piece over because someone refused to follow the conductor.
Other conductors tended to be more mechanical and it was less intuitive for the band to know what they wanted. This meant we had to spend time together and learn. All of them had their "WATCH THE STICK" moments, where it was essential for everyone to have their eyes on the conductor.

The thing is, it's not just about learning to interpret how the conductor places the beat. It's also about learning how time works within the physical layout of the ensemble. The conductor is sort of an honest broker and serves as a reference for time. If a section is perceived as out of time, in my experience the conductor will say something like, "section X your behind the beat; get on the stick." After playing in a certain layout for awhile, you get used to hearing the time relationship between your section and the other sections, and translating this with the conductors placement of the ictus.

If for some reason a decision is made to change the layout of the ensemble, then individual players have to relearn the time cues they hear from surrounding sections, and also how to translate these time cues to the conductors ictus. This can take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. I have seen it have a negative impact on subsequent tours. Usually things resolve, but I have actually seen ensembles change back to a previous layout in the middle of tours to resolve ongoing time issues.

I can only speak from my own experience. There were always people who seemed to think they did not have to follow the stick; I mean people who vocally expressed this opinion. It was pretty easy for a good conductor to pick these people out of the ensemble and call them out publicly. It's happened to me a number of times, even when I was doing my best to play with the stick. Sometimes getting called out means your not interpreting the ictus properly given all of the variables involved.

Getting it right is definitely not easy, but IMHO a profession musician should at least try. If you keep trying, eventually you have a better chance to get it right.

 

[Bruce Calin]

One of my old mentors advised to not look the conductor in the eye but to always be aware of the stick, at least for reference. I think that is good advice in general. Sometimes a little eye contact in the right circumstance is good, especially if you are the only bassist or the principal. I also tell my students in whatever ensemble with a conductor,"If the conductor isn't moving their arms, you're not playing."- simple courtesy that can go a long way and can help learning to be aware of the whole picture and not just your individual part. I'm also told that the rest of the orchestra, especially the strings, frequently depend on the basses for rhythmic reference, which is another reason to be aware of attacks and the ensemble-conductor time relationship.

 

[Wasnex]

Strange to talk about ‘the orchestra’ playing behind the beat in that particular part of Mahler 5, when in fact only one person out of probably 80 odd is playing a solo. Functionally speaking ‘the beat’ in that instance is an internally generated one. If an orchestra plays consistently behind the beat to the same degree all the way through a piece, is it really the case that the orchestra is behind, or have you as a viewer misunderstood the collective’s relationship between the conductor’s gesture and the sound?

I think you are really getting into the most important aspect here. Because it's really about where the ensemble interprets the ictus of the beat rather than where it really is.

So from the conductors perspective I think it's probably that the orchestra is continually way behind. But from an audience perspective, I never really feel that rhythmic tension between the conductor and the ensemble. Also as performer, I generally perceive the ictus as straight up, so there is no intended rhythmic tension with the conductor. Any rhythmic tension that results is likely due to variation in interpretation of the ictus or variances in propagation delay due to the physical layout of the ensemble. Sometimes propagation delay can cause significant issues where you must play way on top or way behind the beat.

There are times when an entire ensemble would intentionally play significantly behind the beat. Essentially you perceive the ictus in one place but the notes do not speak immediately. If I had a better grasp of music history I could probably explain, but I lack the formal education.

I developed an ability to do it intuitively, and was simply told to breath with the ensemble. Basically it occurred with transcriptions of certain orchestral passages played at slower tempos. Skillful execution required familiarity with both the conductor and the ensemble. In other words, if you played the exact piece in a different ensemble you would have to learn to interpret the passage a bit differently.

It got a lot easier after I had gone through the experience with a few different ensembles and conductors. Then I learned to pick up on other cues that helped understand and interpret what to do, so I was less likely to be caught making an early entrance.

 

[User4843936]

It got a lot easier after I had gone through the experience with a few different ensembles and conductors. Then I learned to pick up on other cues that helped understand and interpret what to do, so I was less likely to be caught making an early entrance.

Well that’s it, isn’t it. When I first started I was too caught up in what I was doing to really do anything other than use my ears to go along with the totality of the piece in an instinctive way. I didn’t really develop any kind of connection to conductors until I’d freed myself up by getting to grips with a certain number of general issues to do with playing.

Nothing worse than those petty tyrant conductors with the “my way or the highway” attitude. Sometimes I almost wonder if the position of leadership has an appeal to such types as it offers the unassailability of ‘being a high status individual’. Quite often it doesn’t look like a joyful experience on the podium...

I think as you say a useful thing to be able to do is sort of learn to read any room very quickly. People and the groups they make up are all radically different in character. These days it seems a way to get a lot out of a situation is to put the least amount of extraneous me into it, unless a need for that presents itself.

In my experience, the person conducting isn’t always going to be someone who is a ‘room reader’ in any kind of reactive or passive way. To a degree it’s always up to everyone present to map the give and take of the impulses and egos... Never a dull moment!

 

[Wasnex]

Well that’s it, isn’t it. When I first started I was too caught up in what I was doing to really do anything other than use my ears to go along with the totality of the piece in an instinctive way. I didn’t really develop any kind of connection to conductors until I’d freed myself up by getting to grips with a certain number of general issues to do with playing.

Nothing worse than those petty tyrant conductors with the “my way or the highway” attitude. Sometimes I almost wonder if the position of leadership has an appeal to such types as it offers the unassailability of ‘being a high status individual’. Quite often it doesn’t look like a joyful experience on the podium...

I think as you say a useful thing to be able to do is sort of learn to read any room very quickly. People and the groups they make up are all radically different in character. These days it seems a way to get a lot out of a situation is to put the least amount of extraneous me into it, unless a need for that presents itself.

In my experience, the person conducting isn’t always going to be someone who is a ‘room reader’ in any kind of reactive or passive way. To a degree it’s always up to everyone present to map the give and take of the impulses and egos... Never a dull moment!

I may have described the most talented conductor I have ever worked with as an idiot savant . He was incredible on the podium--and I will leave it at that .

Something I have learned is happiness and success often comes from our ability and willingness to freely subordinate ourselves to others. This is difficult to do, and also potentially dangerous as many people are not always trustworthy or worthy. So the trick is to know when to give yourself over. I guess in the greater scheme of things I got lucky, for the most part.

The job in an large ensemble is largely to play your part well, but at the direction of the conductor. In other words to give yourself over to the conductor in a way.

In essence I view the ensemble as the instrument of the conductor. As it takes a talented and skilled musician to play an instrument well, likewise it takes a talented and skilled conductor to play an ensemble well. I don't buy into the idea that the conductor is superfluous, so it's okay to ignore him/her.

I don't generally work well with tyrants, but they are often the most driven and talented people you will meet. I would rather work with a less talented person who treats me fairly and humanely than a toxic narcissist who can extract the most beautiful performance from an ensemble. That probably goes with the fact that I am a generalist who can play classical, jazz, and pop competently, rather than a specialist who excels in any one area. In my experience, tyrants are almost always specialists.

 

[User4843936]

The fine line, or maybe just lack of shared perspective, between madness/genius. Being able to cultivate a conscious relationship with the whole spectrum of active to passive participation is a lifetime’s task as far as I can tell.

And I’m not kidding myself; the reason I don’t get on with all these ‘tyrants’ is because we’re incredibly similar apart some tiny (but key!) differences which neither of us will compromise on.

To me the ‘superfluous conductor’ bit is one trotted out by players too insecure to relinquish their little illusion of control/tyranny. Conductors always have an effect, even if it’s to wreck things so badly that the story gets dined out on for years afterwards in the pub. War stories are part of how you learn, aren’t they? Establishing shared boundaries and their violations and all that.

 

[g-dude]

In my experience, there are definitely some things that classical musicians do far better than jazz musicians. But ask most classical musicians to improvise a melody on the spot, and they will be clueless, and also probably totally uninterested.

Which is ironic, because in the baroque period, you were expected to be good at improvising.

Bach was known for his improvisational ability.

 

[longfinger]

The orchestra is not late, the conductor is early!

;-)

But really, that's the truth. Conductors are visually preparing the ensemble for what sounds happen next. There is latency in the group, so conductors have to gesture early, for the sounds to be on time.

I remember a TV show where a real conductor explains this. I'll check around youtube and if I see it, I'll share it here. [edit: perhaps it was a soloist who also conducts, explaining that as a soloist, he was always in the moment, but as a conductor he was obliged to be ahead of the moment. ]

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Rather enjoyable to see Bernstein talk about what a conductor does.

I rather feel a clear stick is important. If you want us to follow you please make it clear at least where one is.
Any conductor stories @David Potts?

Also, I can’t believe in the first post that clown was trash talking Barry Lieberman’s ability. Really?

 

[s van order]

I´ve played the same repertoire with my band plus different symphony orchestras. To be honest I cannot look at the most conductors if I want to play in time, it just confuses me. I like to give them a smile from time to time to give them a good feel, but that´s it more or less.

But there are conductors who are conducting exactly on the beat (feels great). Some are very very early but convinced to be on the beat. The smaller the orchestra the better (for me). We also played with chamber orchestras (strings only), there is usually very exact timing and conducting right on the beat. I experienced brass sections doing their completely own thing no matter what the conductor is doing, while I also experienced very tight large orchestras even in difficult acoustic situations. The whole thing is still more or less a miracle for me. I talked to some conductors how they feel and show the pulse without being much smarter afterwards. My way to deal with this is to keep calm and not to worry too much.

Yes to this. In a cello section I got frustrated in reading my conductor’s beat and talked to my principal who gave me an interesting look and said to just watch her. Problem solved. I can repeat the anecdote for when I sat in the bass section in a different orchestra. In bass sectional we did rehearse starting bows together a hair before the beat to combat lateness yet avoid a blur of sound on the attack.

 

[David Potts]

I'Ve just watched part of The Berlin Phil/Simon Rattle performance of Pictures at an Exhibition on Qwest, hosted by Quincy Jones. Anything that anyone has said above was plainly evident. All the posturing and missing beats from the conductor whose face was continuously contorted as though in agony and with perspiration dripping from him. The members of the orchestra were all so confident and competent - no passengers here. The photography and choice of shots constantly go in close to individual players and sections, and the Bass Section receive a good share. In all the string sections the tremendous focus and energy is plainly apparent and the bows move precisely together during all levels of difficulty. I have heard that the members of the orchestra are encouraged to take on lots of other musical activities, including soloing and chamber music.

I watched Adam's video right through, sometimes wincing at his sweeping statements. The demands placed on jazz and orchestral bass players are different but there is also a commonality of purpose, to create good music. My Sydney Symphony Orchestra "swung like a lead balloon" when it joined with pop and jazz groups in cross-over money raising concerts yet we could knock you out with our Stravinsky Rite of Spring. We basses used to call placement of pizzicatos "English time", allowing phrases to play right out before that very precise moment (our Principal was English). This used to confuse and upset some visiting conductors who would insist on the bottom of their now over emphasised beat. One Chinese lady's down beat was so fast that the baton rebound was above her head before the basses spoke.

I have never regretted my early days in the 60s on bass, trying to sound like Ray Brown in piano/bass/drums trios. I soon found that I was going to be a better orchestral player, not improvising but reading and interpreting other peoples' music. What I did carry forward was a a good internal feeling for rythm and timing, "swing" if you like

I wish that every would-be jazz player could sit in a good orchestra playing Mahler's Songs of a Wayfarer" and every aspiring orchestral player experience the deep satisfaction of creating a beautiful line in a slow ballad sung by a great jazz artist. The commonality is creating great music on the instrument, the bass.

Cheers, everyone and keep safe.

 

[Who da Ville]

I talked to some conductors how they feel and show the pulse without being much smarter afterwards.

Sounds like every conversation I've ever had with a drummer...

 

[eerbrev]

Also, I can’t believe in the first post that clown was trash talking Barry Lieberman’s ability. Really?

In fairness, I think in some of those videos he is either uncomfortable being on camera, or wasn't on his best day. His sound is definitely undeniable and he's got a ton of wisdom, but that clip he points out is definitely not rhythmically correct to the metronome that he's trying to describe.

But it feels like cherry-picking to me? There's so much great video from great classical players (and even Liebermann himself) where that doesn't happen, so it's like when people were mad at Rinat for saying "don't skip the rests" and then proceeding to skip the rests in that instructional video for the youtube symphony back in the day. Also, Barry's like what, in his 70s? Give him a break!

The number of dumb things I've heard come out of professional musicians' mouths - of all genres - is staggering, frankly. Neely is a really great player, and has a lot of good things to say. This just ... wasn't one of them.

 

[LedReign]

Adam Neely is an insightful dude but it bugs me when he talks about anything specific to playing in an Orchestral setting. I get the feeling that he REALLY lacks experience there. There are a lot of people on YouTube talking about things they don’t understand.

 

[Bruce Calin]

An idea that I think has helped me over the years is if I as principal can get my section to play as together as possible it can reduce some of the "basses are late" issues. If I'm not the principal I try to synchronize with him or her as much as I can. It does take concentration and awareness of where you are in the section. I also try to make it as much a group effort as possible with as little judgmental language as I can("You may think I'm an idiot as principal but follow me anyway"). Then we can go on to the "basses are too loud" issues.

 

[PaulCannon]

Also, I can’t believe in the first post that clown was trash talking Barry Lieberman’s ability. Really?

Adam wasn't wrong...

 

[jj.833]

"conducting an orchestra is like taking an octopus for a walk on a rubber band"!!

I immediately sent this quote to our conductor. I'll let you know his reply, if there will be any.
Thanks @David Potts, you really brightened my day ;-)

 

[oliebrice]

I only watched a bit of the video, but it seems odd to me to describe an issue that came up with a string quartet and then explain it through discussing relationships with conductors. I'm sure most chamber musicians have some orchestral experience in their past but they're certainly used to not relying on conductors...

 

[kinnon64]

Beautifully said, @Wasnex and @Adam Wynter. Thank you both.

 

[User4843936]

Adam wasn't wrong...

You’re quite right about the questionable 3 against 2 as far as I can tell. What I found objectionable was the situating of one person and the credentials they have as representative of a general standard found amongst people who move primarily within the ‘classical music’ sphere. “Well this guy has taught at a prestigious institution for 20 years and he can’t do x, so what does that say about all the other people in his field”. etc etc

From what I can gather, mr. Cannon, you’ve put up various examples of rhythmically complex things online which mr. Neely could have used, although I have no idea whether or not you deem yourself a ‘classical’ person. And I don’t know whether the things I’ve seen from you are still online.

However we all might feel about it, the comment mr. Neely makes stands. However it stands only in relation to one performance of one person’s capabilities, so I suppose what I’m saying is that if he were to look for another classical player giving an accurate demonstration of a 3 against 2 he’d be able to find such a person without too much effort. Possibly.