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Double Bass Orchestral Auditions

W

WAY

Jun 22, 2009
46
0
Brooklyn, NY
#1
During recent years there have been many auditions where nobody has been hired. There's consistently a debate over the current audition process. Does anyone out there have an idea that could work for future auditions??? Here's my .02


Would an orchestra find a good fit following this method? Is it fair?

1. Require each applicant send their application/CV/resume along with a one page statement making a case for their qualifications.

2. After considering each applicant have those 'whom qualify' send an uncut/unedited DVD recording of their playing (same rep for everyone.) In addition, they must provide 3 references for the committee to contact during this analysis period. Only the very best, most qualified, and experienced candidates will move on from this round.

3. Those who advance from round 2 will be given a trial period determined by the ensemble. During the trial period the candidate will be judged on preparation, work etiquitte, professionalism, and performance as well as a LIVE audition.

4. If there is more than one candidate chosen from this round, repeat round 3... include a longer more detailed audition list.


Every orchestra wants to find the BEST fit for their orchestra. Being a great audition performer (under the current conditions) doesn't necessarily make you a great or even good orchestral performer (or fit for the ensemble.) I feel this route could change the audition process as we know it. It creates a fair assessment of playing, while giving players a real opportunity to show what they can do. Meanwhile, an ensemble can see how they work together and judge them on every day work ethic.

The ensembles can pay the candidates less money during their trial period. They will cover costs of airline, hotel, and a food stipend for the trial (but no salary). Organizations will save money during their search in salary, pension, health benefits, etc.

I don't believe that every player who 'wins' an audition is the most qualified for the job (they may be qualified, but not necessarily the best fit). My process allows for players to show who they are AND how they play... most importantly how they play in a section or lead.


I hope this thread brings up some serious thoughts and consideration. Please do not respond if you only want to talk non-sense! Thanks
 
#2
well, i think its a good idea to be re evaluating the system, but I thing dvd's tend to misrepresent individuals. I think that the screened audition process provides the peak stress that one would ever encounter on the job. So, maybe something where all rounds are screened, and whenever the screen would be raised, have those players do trial weeks?
 
#4
Blake,

I've never heard an uncut/unedited audition DVD misrepresent a players ability. I think it is very true to ones standard. If you're speaking of video quality... that's a different topic. (Don't be a fool and buy poor equipment to record something of significant importance.)

PS What peak stress do you speak of??? Maybe you could elaborate on the stresses encountered at a professional gig? and how it relates to an audition? Can't
'stress' be judged in other ways? Like during an interview process?

Simandl~ Can you find out more about the idea? Thanks
 
#5
What I was saying is that a DVD shows the best that a player has to offer, but not how they offer it in a performance setting. It's different in the sense that you say someone could get a great take once, but what an audition does, is provides ample opportunities to be judged in close proximity to other competitors. There are stresses that come with performance that all eyes on you can only provide. I'm not saying it isn't a nice sentiment to alleviate some of the stress, but we are performers and I think testing performance is a great way to see if someone is qualified for a gig.
 
#6
I think this discussion is trying to approach two very different jobs from the same perspective. The hiring process for a tutti player and principal/asst principal could theoretically be different.

I can see Way's point, that for the day in-day out section player, the whole fitting in, blending, getting along, etc is maybe more important than playing the most perfect live audition. Maybe it's not necessary to have nerves of steel. Of course, that is until you're on the last stand for Also Sprach and start the fugue subject, and it's 9:30 on a Saturday night after a really long week, and you're starting to get sick, and you have 100 things on your mind, but everything is silent and it's just you on last stand playing the fugue subject. Then you'd better be able to perform under pressure, and if that ability hasn't been assessed...

So, even tutti players need to have their nerves under control, and the best way to test this is the live audition. It can be very cold and impersonal, but so can the concert stage.
 
#7
Also, there are orchestras that do trials for several finalists, even for section positions, and the personality and professionalism of the finalists are evaluated in order to find the best "fit". It would make sense if this step in the hiring process was more common.
 
#8
Blake,
Please read my audition proposal again. It doesn't alleviate any LIVE audition. It moves the live portion to a time that makes more sense (in my opinion). The current audition practice makes for an Olympic-like audition situation. When, in any gig, do you need that type of competitive edge? I don't see any need for it. Please read again.
Thanks

Mark,
Do you feel the current 'American' audition practice truly allows for multiple players for trial? I'm not scrutinizing the current European audition practice. Just to be clear.
 
#9
Hi everyone. There are, obviously, some serious issues with the audition process.

However, whenever I read these threads I can't help but think that we're collectively upset about the wrong issues. The issue seems to me to be the scarcity of jobs, not the manner in which we are forced to compete for them.

Like many who read these threads, in addition to being a bassist with genuine aspirations, I must have a full time job in order to pay the rent.

I have been on a lot of interviews for full time jobs in both the commercial and non-profit sectors.

There's no pre-screening video. I get to send a cover letter and a one-sheet resume and somehow need to communicate the whole of my experience and worthiness for a given job in less than 500 words.

If I "make" the interview, it is incumbent upon me to demonstrate my worthiness for the job---to demonstrate my skills, my ability to collaborate, etc---in a 10-20 minute conversation or in a series of 2-3 conversations. I'm not reimbursed for the travel it took to get to the interview. On the interview, there's no screen. Just me and my future employer. Each time, I am competing against a smaller pool of people. I'm not given an opportunity to work with the team first to see if they like me. If I mess up and say something "off" in the only 20 minutes i have with them... if I get nervous and give them the impression I'm in over my head ... I don't get the job.

Sometimes, that prospective employer might go through a couple of different rounds of interviews and not feel they've found the right person for the job. And they don't hire anyone. That's their prerogative.

Sometimes, it has nothing to do with skill, the training a candidate has received, the school they've been to, the credentials they have. Sometimes it's just not the right fit.

Please understand: I don't mean to burst any bubbles. I truly, wholly empathize with the terrifying nature of spending 8 years working on Dittersdorf and realizing there's only 30 jobs out there at the moment (I am taking this figure directly from musicalchairs.info), but.....I don't know if that has anything to do with the audition process.

I wish I had a solution to offer. I wish that the economics of the orchestra -- which require paying 70+ musicians a livable wage, not to mention the administrative apparatus necessary to mount 5+ shows a week (fundraisers, marketers, stagehands, human resources personnel, public relations staff, artistic management, ushers, upkeep of the literal physical space in which the concerts are being presented, etc etc) -- worked well enough that there were several orchestras in each major city in the world.

Perhaps the model of broadcasting orchestral music via the web (a la Berliner Philharmoniker) and movie houses (the Met Orchestra) will drive public demand for listening to the best music mankind has ever created by the best interpreters of that music. I sure hope something happens... because I want to see more of it, I want to play more of it, I want very badly for it to thrive, and for carefully composed, carefully studied music to resume importance in the world. I spend my non-bass-playing hours raising money for orchestras and classical venues in New York.

But, as a group, let's please stop blaming the problem on the audition process. When 400 people line up for one job, 399 people don't get the job. Doesn't matter what field it is: Getting a job is hard, and lots of times, capable, deserving people don't pass the interview process. The difference is that in the commercial or non profit sector, you can just get back on the horse -- often times a person is interviewing at several places simultaneously.

We need to somehow figure out how to develop more playing opportunities that provide livable wages---not luxuriant... livable wages will do, thank you---for the very deserving musicians who have dedicated their lives to Art.
 
#10
'Not to burst your bubble' ifg...

Lets NOT compare apples to oranges for the sake of finding a comparison in fruits. You're correct, they are both fruits. However, being hired for an admin job is a far cry from 'Winning' a job as an orchestral musician with the current standard of audition standards.
(You are correct in saying there aren't enough jobs. Of those 30 available jobs 2 are in USA and one is a substitute position.)

"Making" the interview in a field outside of music performance often takes knowing someone already working there. As a matter of fact, I know that SONY (my wife works there) will only see applicants who are recommended by someone at the company. When making your general comparisons I can't help but think of the number of people whom applied for her job. She never received a response from Warner, Universal, and EMI... for the same position, yet she got an interview at SONY because she had a friend working there whom recommended her.


My intentions of starting this thread were to present consideration of change. And why?

Here's the why...

1. Current average costs for taking an orchestral double bass audition runs at a higher rate than most other instruments. Lets say about $600-1000 per audition. (When was the last time anyone spend that kind of money on an interview outside of music???) My ideas alleviate those extremely high costs. If you are invited to an audition outside USA, the costs start at $1000-1500.

2. How often does it happen that a person does not obtain their tenure or contract renewal??? IMO, too often. A new system for a more thorough background/personality check to avoid future auditions for the same position. How is that not a good thing that benefits any ensemble?

3. The orchestral musician of today are NOT just performers anymore! That's right kiddies, better start learning some social skills. The fact is we are ALL ambassadors of the arts. The importance of educational outreach is at an all-time high. As management, I want a player that has more to offer than just a great audition during 10-15 minutes. Somebody who can reach out to the local community in a positive manner is way more important than an audition machine. Do you think the audience cares about how well the section bass player can play #9? NO, they care about who that person is, where they are from, what they love about music, and most importantly - what they can teach/offer to the community!


Orchestral auditions are geared to finding the player who will make the least number of 'mistakes' during a period of time under the same/similar criteria and restrictions. The fact is, we all play the same excerpts, but NOT everyone has the same instrument. I wonder how an audition would end if you have everyone play the same instrument! This might as well happen with the routine audition practice today. Are the current audition practices really judging musical capabilities OR is it a competition to obtain "perfection?"
 
#11
I completely agree one has to be more than a good player to be a classical musician these days. I also think it is fair to assume that whatever the case may be instrument or whatever, any orchestra wants the best player. I think there is something to be said for having the capacity to play all of these excerpts in front of a panel. I think that it is an important aspect of whether or not someone would fit personally and playing wise, which is why trial weeks are possibly good options. In the audition process though, it's not always as cut and dry as a 10 minute audition, sometimes after the screen is up it turns into a thing of more of an informal contest of how adaptable said individual is.
 
#12
Your points are very well taken, but I believe we are still comparing apples to apples.

Regarding "needing to know someone," I believe the same holds true of orchestras such as Berliner Philharmoniker and the New York Philharmonic. Who you know, who you've studied with, and who you've worked for gets you in the door (for the interview/audition), how you perform on the interview/audition is what gets you the job.

Regarding cost of audition, well you have got me there. However, my girlfriend recently traveled to Boston (from NY) to go after a job (fingers crossed). She was not reimbursed for Amtrak (which was something like $250 round trip). That said, I realize that some people are courted for jobs, and are flown to other cities for interviews, so, again, there is not a parallel in this particular case. (Though I do wonder... would an individual like Tim Cobb be flown to Chicago to take the principal audition there? Joel Quarrington for the London position? This is entirely speculative, but it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to think that these kinds of folks would be courted for jobs in the same way people in other professional sectors are.) I appreciate how frustrating it is to have to pay for a chance at something, but with respect for you and your valiant attempt at finding a solution to the horrid situation, I don't see that it would be likely that an orchestra would pay travel, accommodation, and salary (however minimized) to anyone who made it past a DVD round (as you suggest in your first post) for an unspecified trial period.

There is no snark intended whatsoever in either of my posts. I recognize the tremendous difficulty in getting a salaried job with benefits playing music. I personally think that the reason the stakes are so high have more to do with the lack of opportunity and the fact that many applicants who are taking the risks and making the investments to travel for a shot at a job are not presently employed (whereas for example, in the case of my girlfriend, she can afford to travel to Boston to get the job because she's already working, and, while she wants this new position badly, if she doesn't get it, it won't mean that she can't afford her rent and that there won't be another opportunity that crops up in a few weeks).

My heart truly goes out to those in this predicament.
 
#14
ifg said:
I don't see that it would be likely that an orchestra would pay travel, accommodation, and salary (however minimized) to anyone who made it past a DVD round (as you suggest in your first post) for an unspecified trial period.
Click to expand...

I think you have a point, but many higher teared orchestras do have the money, time, and need to do this. I agree with you because not ALL orchestras will have these funds. I do think most can!

TOP 25 American Orchestras:
Minimum salary is very high, which includes pension, health-care/medical benefits, and who knows what else!!!
ALL of these orchestras have the time and need to trial their players. By selecting 5-10 players they can still cut salary costs, while finding the BEST player for the job.

REMAINING SALARIED POSITIONS in ensembles:
This becomes a challenge of numbers and salary available to work with. I would be surprised to see any of these orchestras not have enough money to really make it happen.

The remaining positions (per-service, B-contracts, smaller budget ensembles) should continue to use the current method. They really cannot afford these costs.

***A trial period (IMO) should be 1 week for section positions & 2-4 weeks for title positions.

Taking things further would be using the same instrument for every player!
 
#15
I'll be honest and say that I'm not a huge fan of the trail weeks. If you have multiple finalists coming over multiple weeks, you have a few problems:

1. There can be a large enough interval between the person with the first trial week and the last. Time has a funny way of changing your thoughts about what you may have heard.

2. There is very little chance the finalists will be playing comparable programs (one could get an easy week while another has a hard one.) which isn't very fair.

3. Who's judging the applicant during the trail week? The members of a section will have the best chance of hearing how the applicant plays and fits in but even then, it's not a given. Unless the applicant is playing completely obnoxiously, somebody on one end of the section probably won't even be able to hear the applicant, plus they'll be focusing on their own job. And while the conductor may visually be able to see how the applicant is doing, they most likely won't be able to hear them. As for the other members of the committee... they probably have no clue.

My two possible additions to the audition process are chamber music rounds for the finalists and satellite rounds for the prelims.

Chamber music - while this isn't unique to auditions, it's not as widespread as it could be. This would quickly give a committee an idea how the player can fit in with an ensemble and all the finalists will be playing music of the same difficulty.

Satellite preliminaries - It seems that it could be cost effective to have multiple priliminary rounds going on around the country (like New World or Hong Kong). They could probably be held at the local union for free. One of the biggest drawbacks, other than cost, is that only a very small number of committee members could be sent to each location. In my experience on the other side of the screen, the more committee members you have, the better the chance the best player will be chosen.

I have a few more thoughts I'll try to post later.
 
#17
I think that a few things have to be adjusted. I think if you get into the "final round" that round should be a trial.

Yes there are open positions but not a lot of jobs and that's partially due to tenure. I apologize if I offend anyone with this who enjoys the benefits of tenure but personally I think orchestras should operate like sports contracts. 5-10 year contracts then evaluate the player on contract. I understand this is very extreme so my other option would be to simply evaluate the player after 20-30 years of playing. I personally find it to be an issue when orchestras are still paying musicians who are so old they fall asleep while on stage. I do not know of any bass players that do this but I have heard of a violinist in the NY Phil who does this on a regular basis.

Finally about the issue of costs. I think that the job market has too many administrators. From what I understand, back in the day under Bernstein the NY phil would have their young peoples concerts, nightly concerts, recording sessions every Monday, as well as other projects while being operated by 19 administrators (not 100% certain on the accuracy of numbers) but these days it seems as if we have a director for everything from running the orchestra to dimming the lights before a concert.

Again sorry if I offended anyone with my comments. Looking forward to seeing what follows this!
 

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