Double Bass Orchestral instruments

[neilG]

As I said before, there were no assumptions or stereotyping on my part - I was simply reporting what I had seen. So every year, I go to a lot of concerts and like seeing the big symphony orchestras - Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig, Concertgebouw etc.

I was surprised that all the harp players in those orchestras, have been female and wondered why?

It could be that children don't hide their inherently feminine and masculine tastes, for lack of a better word. We see that it's mostly girls that are attracted to the quieter sounds of the harp and flute, while boys may be drawn to the big loud things. Additionally, Christian iconography is full of female angels playing the harp reinforcing the idea, for everyone, that women play the harp.

You could also make the argument that it's the parents who reinforce these stereotypes on their own and steer the children in a particular direction, but I'm not buying that as much.

BTW, MikeCanada, I told that drummer joke to the ex-percussionist executive director of my local symphony today and he howled!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

We see that it's mostly girls that are attracted to the quieter sounds of the harp and flute, while boys may be drawn to the big loud things.

Hmm...not sure, I think I liked the idea about long, slender fingers being a help, better?

I can see that if you have pudgy or very thick fingers, it might be difficult to get between the strings - but I don't really know enough about it and was hoping somebody might know about harp technique....?

 

[neilG]

Hmm...not sure, I think I liked the idea about long, slender fingers being a help, better?

I can see that if you have pudgy or very thick fingers, it might be difficult to get between the strings - but I don't really know enough about it and was hoping somebody might know about harp technique....?

There's plenty of space between the strings of the harp for any sort of normal hand size, so that's not an issue. Besides, little girls and boys have small hands and begin on small harps.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

You're probably right on that last point, but the pudgy-fingered ones might get weeded out as they grow up and want to become professionals?

I'm sure I have known plenty of "Tom Boys" who like noise and fury, as much as the boys. And there must be plenty of "sensitive" boys who are drawn to the complexity and beauty of the harp? They can't all be tearaways, who just want to make as much noise as possible - and I have seen plenty of male, flute/piccolo players in orchestras.

 

[AClark]

I'm a girl. My hands are small, but they rarely get in the way. Different hands have different pros/cons. Can we please end this conversation? It's disgustingly generalized. We should all just do/play whatever the hell we want and make an honest attempt to do a good job. The end. Goodbye.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I don't see how I have generalised, I have just reported what I have actually seen in large European orchestras - I still seem to be no nearer an answer as to why all the harp players are female and it intrigues me that such a situation persists in the 21st century.

 

[neilG]

I'm a girl. My hands are small, but they rarely get in the way. Different hands have different pros/cons. Can we please end this conversation? It's disgustingly generalized. We should all just do/play whatever the hell we want and make an honest attempt to do a good job. The end. Goodbye.

I don't think it's disgustingly generalized, although it may be trivial. The phenomenon is demonstrably real and somebody is curious as to why. Frankly, I think I've given the best answer yet, and it's in no way derogatory. Sometimes things are exactly as they seem.

 

[SeaMist_au]

Why does everytime a woman responds to this thread do they get howled down? Just stop it guys.
There IS no reason a double bass is considered a masculine instrument or a harp a feminine instrument apart from societal stereotyping. The type of societal stereotyping that guides people away from just choosing the instrument they like, resulting in a reinforcement of the stereotype.
Unsurprisingly, last weekend a woman commented that playing the double bass is unfeminine. Shock horror, she suggested I take up the harp.......I am not kidding.
So because I am female, instead of expressing myself on the instrument I have the most empathy with (you know feeling the pulse, feeling the groove, feeling the drive) I should take up (according to her) an instrument I have no empathy with altogether.
This whole discussion seems to be a reinforcement of masculine and feminine characteristics that are simply not relevant to playing the instrument. It's how you feel about your music that counts.
Imagine the advice this woman would have given to her daughters if they showed any interest in music then add peer pressure and you have your answer as to why there are more male bassists than female, and vice versa for harp.
So please stop with the stereoyping.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I simply don't see where you get this from - none of this has been said in this thread.

I don't see anybody being "howled down" here - this is a reasoned and rational discussion and anybody is free to contribute and give their opinion.

"So please stop with the stereoyping."

I have pointed out that I own CDs where the soloist is a woman bass player, I know many great female DB players - but I am simply asking the question, why in every large European orchestra I have seen, the harp players are female. This is not stereotyping - this is simply relating what I have seen with my own eyes - it is a fact.

"...masculine and feminine characteristics that are simply not relevant to playing the instrument."

I agree with you on this - which is why it surprises me that in 2013, all the harp players I have seen in large European orchestras are female - why should this be so? If you have any ideas, I would be very interested...

 

[zon6c-f]

Can't say it enough..Atlanta Symphony Prinicpal Bassist Emeritus.. JANE LITTLE.

Over 60 years with A S O.. Petite..small hands.. Full vibratto from low F to end of the board. ...World class symphonic bassist.

 

[Lee Moses]

Why does everytime a woman responds to this thread do they get howled down? Just stop it guys.
There IS no reason a double bass is considered a masculine instrument or a harp a feminine instrument apart from societal stereotyping. The type of societal stereotyping that guides people away from just choosing the instrument they like, resulting in a reinforcement of the stereotype.
Unsurprisingly, last weekend a woman commented that playing the double bass is unfeminine. Shock horror, she suggested I take up the harp.......I am not kidding.
So because I am female, instead of expressing myself on the instrument I have the most empathy with (you know feeling the pulse, feeling the groove, feeling the drive) I should take up (according to her) an instrument I have no empathy with altogether.
This whole discussion seems to be a reinforcement of masculine and feminine characteristics that are simply not relevant to playing the instrument. It's how you feel about your music that counts.
Imagine the advice this woman would have given to her daughters if they showed any interest in music then add peer pressure and you have your answer as to why there are more male bassists than female, and vice versa for harp.
So please stop with the stereoyping.

You have a very active imagination.

 

[MikeCanada]

Hi Boys. I'm terrible at trying to multi-quote, but here's a selection of what has been said, regardless to one's "very active imagination":

Women not having enough strength to play the instrument:
"Apart from the physical strength/stamina required."
"I think some women who are smaller can feel intimidated by the practical issues of carrying the damn thing around."
"But this is relevant to the current discussion - the orchestral Harp is huge and must be heavier than any Double Bass - difficult to move let alone transport! But it's always played by women"
"I think I liked the idea about long, slender fingers being a help, better?"

Girly/feminine "traits" or "characteristics" or "personalities":
"most girls/women like to do things that are feminine. And the double bass really isn't that."
"I would encourage females who have the interest to pursue it and not be deterred by common perception."
"women are not as fragile as people seem to think. Not all of them, anyway."
"We see that it's mostly girls that are attracted to the quieter sounds of the harp and flute"
"Christian iconography is full of female angels playing the harp reinforcing the idea, for everyone, that women play the harp."
"I'm sure I have known plenty of "Tom Boys" who like noise and fury, as much as the boys."
"A woman commented that playing the double bass is unfeminine. Shock horror, she suggested I take up the harp. Imagine the advice this woman would have given to her daughters if they showed any interest in music then add peer pressure and you have your answer as to why there are more male bassists than female."

"Masculine" traits:
"I was speaking about perception, and it is common perception that a bass is more masculine than a flute."
"size also contributes to the bass being perceived as a more "masculine" instrument"
"boys may be drawn to the big loud things."
"And there must be plenty of "sensitive" boys who are drawn to the complexity and beauty of the harp"

Full on broad generalizations/stereotypes:
"I'm pretty sure the O.P. was making a general observation, not a blanket statement. And generally speaking, it is obviously true."
"Or are you of the conviction that there is no difference between "masculine" and "feminine"?"
"A lot of people still think that boys shouldn't play with dolls and girls shouldn't play with trucks."
"I would never discourage a girl/woman from playing double bass because of that perception, but I believe it's likely that that perception discourages some girls/women from playing bass."
"I was merely saying what I am fairly confident that females (and most people) generally perceive as feminine or masculine"
"It could be that children don't hide their inherently feminine and masculine tastes, for lack of a better word."
"It's the parents who reinforce these stereotypes on their own and steer the children in a particular direction"
"none of this has been said in this thread"
"The few females I have known to play bass have received encouragement and help generally above and beyond what most males receive, because most bass professors would love to see more women take up the instrument. And male peers are usually glad to break the monotony of being surrounded by men."
"Frankly, I think I've given the best answer yet, and it's in no way derogatory. Sometimes things are exactly as they seem."
"I have pointed out that I own CDs where the soloist is a woman bass player, I know many great female DB players - but I am simply asking the question, why in every large European orchestra I have seen, the harp players are female. This is not stereotyping."

Logical points made against all of the above:
"There are not any "limitations" or "gender differences" that prevent women from playing bass"
"There are still social pressures/ideologies associated with music and certain instruments."
"the double bass is not 'feminine', presumably making it a masculine instrument, played by men. Somehow this is not sexist. Men defining what is or isn't feminine..."
"My two best teachers, and two of the finest bassists I've ever known, are women. Thank heavens they had the courage to defy stereotypes and do what they loved."
"Yes there are reasons women don't take up the DB. Outright misogyny, part of which is showing here is one, perhaps the major one. You have to be emotionally strong as well as physically capable to survive in such an environment."
"It takes a serious weirdo to decide they want to play the double bass. The gender is irrelevant. Why is this even up for discussion?"
"Before this develops into disputing why "x" gender does (not) play "y" instrument, I think it is fair to say that almost every instrument is faced with overcoming some sort of stereotype, or gender/personality assumptions."
"Maybe instead of all of the joking, infighting, and unnecessary back stabbing, we can try to get along?"
"We should all just do/play whatever the hell we want and make an honest attempt to do a good job."
"There IS no reason a double bass is considered a masculine instrument or a harp a feminine instrument apart from societal stereotyping. The type of societal stereotyping that guides people away from just choosing the instrument they like, resulting in a reinforcement of the stereotype."
"This whole discussion seems to be a reinforcement of masculine and feminine characteristics that are simply not relevant to playing the instrument."

I agree that there isn't a 50/50 split of male and female players on almost any instrument, and some are worse offenders than others. I strongly believe that the reasons for this are strong stereotypes, and social pressures more than anything else. Classical music is one of the least progressive areas of any society. The arts are one of the worst areas for reinforcing gendered "norms", especially among young people who are easily indoctrinated by older "authority figures". They then pass this along to the next generation, because that's what they learned from their teachers, so it must be true. It needs to stop.

Women and men and boys and girls can do anything. Girls are not "naturally" feminine. Boys are not "naturally" masculine. From the second they are brought into this world, we treat them inherently different for no reason other than what is between their legs. There are plenty of cultures that have different values and gender norms than Western cultures, and surprise: these are reflected by the majority of their populations. There will always be exceptions. There will always be people who stand up and say "this isn't right" or "I choose not to conform". And there will always be people who want them to fit into the boxes that society has predetermined they should. Once upon a time biological racial supremacy was considered a "fact". Turns out when you start treating people the same, it becomes rather apparent that they are the same. How about we give it a shot with gender too?

 

[AClark]

It's not even about sexism. You're basically saying that girls are small and boys are big. That's generalizing. Yes, that does sometimes end up being the case, but there are definitely a lot of guys out there that are small than I am, and I bet a few girls that are larger than you. The topic shouldn't be focusing on sex. It should be about the size of a person.

But even then it doesn't even matter. I've seen some tiny people pull out a huge sound. There are ways to get around physical limitations. In order to make music, you have to be able to take your ideas and interpret them on your instrument. It takes a strong brain and imagination to be able to connect the the mental and the physical. you have to have a deep understanding of everything that is going on with your body and your instrument. If you're able to do that, then that's all that really matters and size and shape isn't really a factor. It's all mental.

 

[Lee Moses]

One skilled at imagination and personal atttacks, another with out of context quotes. What other magical wonders can this thread provide?


This is unquestionably the worst thread I have ever read, and I am not sure why I keep coming back to it.

 

[Lee Moses]

Women and men and boys and girls can do anything. Girls are not "naturally" feminine. Boys are not "naturally" masculine. From the second they are brought into this world, we treat them inherently different for no reason other than what is between their legs. There are plenty of cultures that have different values and gender norms than Western cultures, and surprise: these are reflected by the majority of their populations. There will always be exceptions. There will always be people who stand up and say "this isn't right" or "I choose not to conform". And there will always be people who want them to fit into the boxes that society has predetermined they should. Once upon a time biological racial supremacy was considered a "fact". Turns out when you start treating people the same, it becomes rather apparent that they are the same. How about we give it a shot with gender too?

Some of what is said here I agree wholeheartedly with; but other of it...well, I imagine I'd be banned if I put my opinion into words.

"Women and men and boys and girls can do anything." What does that mean? No, they can't. Some things are physically impossible. When I was a boy, I wanted to fly like Superman. But for some reason, I never succeeded. And a man who wants naturally to conceive and give birth to a child never will. And a woman who wants naturally to father a child never will.

And yes, to a degree, masculinity and femininity are natural to their corresponding genders. Hence different masculine and feminine chromosome arrangements, different masculine and feminine hormones, different masculine and feminine sex organs, etc. Boys and girls develop differently, with different types of voices, different physical features, and significantly different typical sizes.

Does that mean a female cannot or should not play the double bass? Absolutely not! That is something either gender can do. And either gender can do most things that that the other can do. But not all differences are socially imposed--some are actual.

 

[MikeCanada]

Yes, I took some quotes (including my own) out of context. Out of context, some of these things seem more extreme. The context of a select few of them could change the sentiment behind them, and how you decide to read into them can do the same. Language is a funny thing like that. Some of the things said here, even in context, can be interpreted as discriminating against women/girls. Whether or not that was the intent behind the original comment, it isn't stretching too far to say that generalizing something as feminine or masculine inherently creates a "man vs. woman" situation. Yes, there are biological differences between men and women. I would suggest that liking pink instead of blue has very little to do with biology and a lot to do with the fact that our culture suggests the former is "feminine" and the latter is "masculine". I would go so far as to say that the assumptions about certain instruments fall into the same category of social pressures. It wasn't that long ago that professional orchestras were entirely male, yes even the harp players, simply because they didn't allow women into them.

I would like to thank you for clarifying that the word anything could be interpreted literally in this context. You crushed my dreams of growing up to become a tiger, or the tooth fairy's apprentice as a solid plan B. Yes, there are biological differences. It is highly unlikely that these differences significantly influence one's instrument selection.

These disputes, regardless to whether or not one perceives them as discriminatory (against women or violists) do nothing to further the art. I feel like "evidence" for "why" people do what they do is a pipe dream, and we can largely agree that different people will make different choices regardless of their gender. The "proof" offered has been anecdotal evidence, and I think we have more than dispelled the idea that it is only men who play bass. The fact that I have witnessed a professional male harpist is proof enough to me that they exist. This was the second link I was offered when googling "male harpist" http://www.harpcolumn.com/forums/young-harpists/posts/57542 and although a quick skim indicates that most of the harpists in question are younger students, I'm sure some of them will pursue it professionally.

I would like to offer the following answer to the "why does x play y?" question: Either gender is capable of playing any instrument that does not specifically require the use of one's gender specific body parts. I am sure that there are probably some of those out there, I am not brave enough to google it. Social/cultural generalizations and stereotypes influence these choices.

That's what I've got. Take it or leave it.

 

[Lee Moses]

Thank you for "dispelling the idea that it is only men who play bass." Never mind that no one here thought that was the case. And I don't recall anyone saying either gender was incapable of playing an instrument. But now that we have that settled, maybe we can close this worthless thread.

 

[mrLahey]

Looks like we're in the eye of the poopicane here boys.

 

[ThatBassistDude]

I'm principle trombonist in the Ft Worth Youth Orchestra and 2 of the 4 double bassists are female, we also almost had a female trombone player in our section. Not as rare as you think

 

[eerbrev]

Hi Boys. I'm terrible at trying to multi-quote, but here's a selection of what has been said, regardless to one's "very active imagination":

Women not having enough strength to play the instrument:
"I think some women who are smaller can feel intimidated by the practical issues of carrying the damn thing around."

You've rustled my Jimmies a little bit, Mike . normally we're in agreement, but I really dislike being misquoted. In spite of myself, I feel the need to repeat exactly what I said in its entirety:

"I think some women who are smaller can feel intimidated by the practical issues of carrying the damn thing around, but I think that applies to people of either gender. If someone wants to play, then they'll find a way."

perhaps, being more PC, I should have also included those who are intersex or who do not define themselves as either gender, or are transgendered. However, my point remains clear - I was pointing out the reality of size concerns to people, specifically in the day-to-day lugging around of a large, heavy and Fragile object, plus a stool if you use one, and whatever various other accoutrements (stands, foot stools, yoga blocks) one deems necessary.

It's a real concern, even for those of us who are NOT small. dislocated shoulders, back problems, tendonitis, tennis elbow, Scoliosis, you name it - we play a physically daunting instrument, and its size turns people away, of both genders.

I think that the original question, that of "why is there a noticable gender skew in the world of professional double bass?" is a Question wrongly phrased. The question should be "What keeps anyone from playing the bass?" the answer is the same regardless of gender.

I don't deny that there are societal pressures that press against women to play (watch me do the rabbit-fingers) "more lady-like" instruments, and I do believe that that is 100% Grade-A ********, but I have never personally met any bassist who would discourage an interested student from playing (especially a promising one), regardless of gender. Even the most calloused, old school, crotchety old F***er I know (a student of Oscar Zimmerman who retired in the 90s but still teaches) was nothing but supportive to the female students in his studio. If you meet people who are not this way, it is my view that they are the exception, not the rule.

-----

There's been a lot of ill-will sown in this thread, by people either innocently, or willingly taking peoples views out of contexts (on both sides of the field). I think we all need to remember that, in the name of high-quality and positive discussion and debate, it is ALWAYS best to take the best intentions out of a post on the internet, regardless of, or perhaps BECAUSE of your knee-jerk reaction.

It's never a good idea to get mad on the internet. It makes you feel like s*** and ruins your day, and it doesn't get you anywhere. All it does it destroy the quality of the conversation. Go for sober second thought and perspective over anger.


eerbrev