Order of Keys to learn Pentatonic

[baddarryl]

Hi Everyone,
I have been assigned a goal to learn A Pentatonic all over the fretboard. I am not currently with a teacher so my question is this. What Key or order of keys should I tackle next? I guess since A is the relative minor of C go there and then maybe around the Circle of Fifths just for organization? Make sense? Maybe take an approach like that or all scales and modes etc. Thanks

 

[FatStringer52]

A lot of folks, including myself, use the circle of 4ths for exercise purposes. That will cycle you through the 12 most common keys. Work thru them ascending/descending from the E and A string, then work on them descending/ascending from the D and G string. Play 'em on two strings, play 'em one one string. That should keep you busy for quite a while! lol

Enjoy!

Edited to add: Also learn the 5 pentatonic shapes and always, always keep track of the root!

 

[thewildest]

The circle of 5ths is the cicle of 4ths.

I’d do two things to master this:
1) as you suggested, pick a patter (5ths, 4ths or whatever) and play the pentatonics all over the instrument for each tonality.
2) pick a fret number and play all the pentatonic tonalities on that spot.

enjoy!!

 

[Wasnex]

Hi Everyone,
I have been assigned a goal to learn A Pentatonic all over the fretboard. I am not currently with a teacher so my question is this. What Key or order of keys should I tackle next? I guess since A is the relative minor of C go there and then maybe around the Circle of Fifths just for organization? Make sense? Maybe take an approach like that or all scales and modes etc. Thanks

I will assume you mean A minor pentatonic which has the same notes as C major pentatonic.

A min Pentatonic: A,C,D,E,G (1,m3,P4,P5,m7)
C Maj Pentatonic: C,D,E,G,A (1,M2,M3,P5,M6)

M=Major
m=minor
P=Perfect

As others have suggested, go up and down the circle of fifths till you have covered all 15 keys; then repeat till you have mastered the material.

Consider practicing all inversions: Minor: 13457, 34571, 45713, 57134, 71345. Major: 12356, 23561, 35612, 56123, 61235.

I use pentatonic patterns frequently, but I do it pretty much intuitively from years of playing. I would think if you are really serious, you need to think in both intervals and note names. Later you can learn to how to sub various pentatonic scales over chords when you are soloing by starting at different intervals above the root of the chord. This is where it starts getting interesting, and also more difficult to think about. So if you are really interested in pentatonic studies you need to lay down a good strong foundation.

This video will give you an idea of what I mean:


I tried to analyze what Gary is doing in this post:
Gary Willis' Right Hand... OMG

Here's another video that explains how to use a formula with pentatonic scales for soloing. It's basically an expansion of what the Gray Willis video covers. Sorry this video will probably not be super useful if you don't have some fundamental understanding of the keyboard, but it's still worth to listening to. If you are going to study music, I would strong encourage you to develop some ability to play keys.



Let's make an observation. Let's say we are in the key of A minor, which has no sharps or flats. We know that D minor has 1 flat (Bb), and the D minor pentatonic is D,F,G,A,C. Since Bb is not part of the D minor pentatonic scale, you can play it over the key of A minor or D minor. In other words it is diatonic to both keys. Likewise, E minor has one sharp (F#), and E minor pentatonic is E,G,A,B,D. Since F# is not part of the E minor pentonic scale, you can play E minor pentatonic over the key of A minor or E minor. Same as above, it is diatonic to both keys.

What happens if we go one more step around the circle of fifths in both ways? In other words let's consider the keys of B minor and E minor. B minor pentatonic is B,D,E,F#,A and G min pentatonic is G,Bb,C,D,A. In both instances we have one accidental sounding in the pentatonic scale, and these accidentals are going to clash a bit with A minor. Essentially these pentatonic scales are a bit outside the key of A minor. You may have heard the term "playing out;" this is pretty much where it comes from. Playing outside is covered somewhat in the second video I posted, especially in the part where he starts using the blue dots.

I am sure this is way more than you expected. Don't expect to comprehend this stuff overnight. I am already retired, and I am only really scratching the surface, but I never really studied how to apply pentatonic scales. My intent was just to give you some idea of some of the cool ways pentonic scales can be used, so you can see where the road may lead if you are really interested and motivated.

 

[Malcolm35]

What Wasnex said ^^. The second video is a must read. Thanks for posting.

 

[baddarryl]

I will assume you mean A minor pentatonic which has the same notes as C major pentatonic.

A min Pentatonic: A,C,D,E,G (1,m3,P4,P5,m7)
C Maj Pentatonic: C,D,E,G,A (1,M2,M3,P5,M6)

M=Major
m=minor
P=Perfect

As others have suggested, go up and down the circle of fifths till you have covered all 15 keys; then repeat till you have mastered the material.

Consider practicing all inversions: Minor: 13457, 34571, 45713, 57134, 71345. Major: 12356, 23561, 35612, 56123, 61235.

I use pentatonic patterns frequently, but I do it pretty much intuitively from years of playing. I would think if you are really serious, you need to think in both intervals and note names. Later you can learn to how to sub various pentatonic scales over chords when you are soloing by starting at different intervals above the root of the chord. This is where it starts getting interesting, and also more difficult to think about. So if you are really interested in pentatonic studies you need to lay down a good strong foundation.

This video will give you an idea of what I mean:


I tried to analyze what Gary is doing in this post:
Gary Willis' Right Hand... OMG

Here's another video that explains how to use a formula with pentatonic scales for soloing. It's basically an expansion of what the Gray Willis video covers. Sorry this video will probably not be super useful if you don't have some fundamental understanding of the keyboard, but it's still worth to listening to. If you are going to study music, I would strong encourage you to develop some ability to play keys.



Let's make an observation. Let's say we are in the key of A minor, which has no sharps or flats. We know that D minor has 1 flat (Bb), and the D minor pentatonic is D,F,G,A,C. Since Bb is not part of the D minor pentatonic scale, you can play it over the key of A minor or D minor. In other words it is diatonic to both keys. Likewise, E minor has one sharp (F#), and E minor pentatonic is E,G,A,B,D. Since F# is not part of the E minor pentonic scale, you can play E minor pentatonic over the key of A minor or E minor. Same as above, it is diatonic to both keys.

What happens if we go one more step around the circle of fifths in both ways? In other words let's consider the keys of B minor and E minor. B minor pentatonic is B,D,E,F#,A and G min pentatonic is G,Bb,C,D,A. In both instances we have one accidental sounding in the pentatonic scale, and these accidentals are going to clash a bit with A minor. Essentially these pentatonic scales are a bit outside the key of A minor. You may have heard the term "playing out;" this is pretty much where it comes from. Playing outside is covered somewhat in the second video I posted, especially in the part where he starts using the blue dots.

I am sure this is way more than you expected. Don't expect to comprehend this stuff overnight. I am already retired, and I am only really scratching the surface, but I never really studied how to apply pentatonic scales. My intent was just to give you some idea of some of the cool ways pentonic scales can be used, so you can see where the road may lead if you are really interested and motivated.

Hey, thank you so much for the time you took to put that together. Here are my goals and some background: I was for the longest time just a bedroom player covering other's songs mostly in the Rock genre. Bass is something I have dibble dabbled with for years, but have never taken the time to master. I am not saying I want (or have time to do that), but I find that when I improvise with people or play music that allows a little room for bass fills and such I am really limited in that I don't have an understanding fully of my fret board or diatonic theory for that matter. I have been playing in cover bands the last couple of years so time invested in actually learning theory is limited by that.

I did find that A minor pentatonic allows me to move around the board and stay in key which is really freeing for me as long as we are in C major or A minor. I get that. So I thought I would try to learn them in all keys. I have the 5 patterns so that will be helpful. I understand that learning Chord Theory would unlock much of this for me. I hope to one day have time to really dive into it. For right now I think I am looking for tidbits that will make be a better player. After all these years I really don't know my fretboard which is frustrating to me. Thank you once again.

 

[Wasnex]

Hey, thank you so much for the time you took to put that together. Here are my goals and some background: I was for the longest time just a bedroom player covering other's songs mostly in the Rock genre. Bass is something I have dibble dabbled with for years, but have never taken the time to master. I am not saying I want (or have time to do that), but I find that when I improvise with people or play music that allows a little room for bass fills and such I am really limited in that I don't have an understanding fully of my fret board or diatonic theory for that matter. I have been playing in cover bands the last couple of years so time invested in actually learning theory is limited by that.

I did find that A minor pentatonic allows me to move around the board and stay in key which is really freeing for me as long as we are in C major or A minor. I get that. So I thought I would try to learn them in all keys. I have the 5 patterns so that will be helpful. I understand that learning Chord Theory would unlock much of this for me. I hope to one day have time to really dive into it. For right now I think I am looking for tidbits that will make be a better player. After all these years I really don't know my fretboard which is frustrating to me. Thank you once again.

You can learn the pentatonic block shapes in all inversions. Then you can move them up and down the neck as you see fit. The thing about using the block shapes is you don't really have to think about the notes, you can rely on the shapes as long as you know where to start. This is possible because the fretted pentatonic patterns are exactly the same as you play up and down the neck. So you basically need to learn five shapes to cover all inversions of the closed string patterns.

I use one finger per fret, so the one octave finger pattern for root position A minor pentatonic is (E)1,4,(A)1,3,(D)1,3. The letter in parenthesis is the string I play on. TAB would be (E)5,8(A)5,7(D)5,7

If I move my index finger up one fret and use the same finger pattern, I play Bb minor pentatonic. If I move my index finger up three frets, I play the C minor pentatonic pattern.

A word of caution, if you really want to develop as a musician, you need to think both notes and patterns IMHO. For perspective, most people find learning the notes on the fretboard to be hard and tedious, but it is sort of an essential skill if you really want to understand and be able to discuss how music works.

 

[Malcolm35]

..... A word of caution, if you really want to develop as a musician, you need to think both notes and patterns IMHO. For perspective, most people find learning the notes on the fretboard to be hard and tedious, but it is sort of an essential skill if you really want to understand and be able to discuss how music works.

Or put another way you need to think in A, B, C and 1, 2,3. C7 chord coming up. Find the root using the A, B, C's -- in the first 5 frets of your bass neck, then flesh out the C7 chord with the remaining notes found in a C7 chord. The spelling for a C7 chord are the R-3-5-b7 notes of the C scale. So you need the spelling of the scale or chord as well as where the root notes are on the fretboard.

OK you know where the root is. Where is the root's 3rd? Up a string and back a fret. The 5 is up two strings and toward the bridge two frets. The b7 -- from the root is up two strings and one fret toward the bridge.

Yep you kinda need all the other spellings.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] I leave where they are to you. That fish thing.

Not a step for a stepper. Get in the shed.

 

[FirewalZ]

A lot of folks, including myself, use the circle of 4ths for exercise purposes. That will cycle you through the 12 most common keys. Work thru them ascending/descending from the E and A string, then work on them descending/ascending from the D and G string. Play 'em on two strings, play 'em one one string. That should keep you busy for quite a while! lol

Enjoy!

Edited to add: Also learn the 5 pentatonic shapes and always, always keep track of the root!

I do 4ths as well....which are ii,v,I progressions.

 

[mambo4]

Looked at the right way you find there are not 5 pentatonic shapes, but rather 5 fragments, of a single pattern. Each fragment is just a 4 fret by 4 frame around this single pattern. A 4 string neck is just not a big enough window for the single pattern to become clear. Grab some graph paper and work it out.

 

[Wasnex]

Looked at the right way you find there are not 5 pentatonic shapes, but rather 5 fragments, of a single pattern. Each fragment is just a 4 fret by 4 frame around this single pattern. A 4 string neck is just not a big enough window for the single pattern to become clear. Grab some graph paper and work it out.

I don't think fragment is the correct term, as you play the entire pentatonic scale from whatever note you start on. Some refer to playing what I describe as the inversions as pentatonic modes, which makes perfect sense to me. Inversions relates more to chords, but I view playing pentatonic scales as similar to playing chords.

 

[Ekulati]

go up and down the circle of fifths till you have covered all 15 keys

15 keys? Did JSB know this when he composed the WTC?

 

[BOOG]

Once you know the five patterns of C and Am and how they connect to each other it all transcribes to other keys. Check out these....

 

[BOOG]

Hi Everyone,
I have been assigned a goal to learn A Pentatonic all over the fretboard. I am not currently with a teacher so my question is this. What Key or order of keys should I tackle next? I guess since A is the relative minor of C go there and then maybe around the Circle of Fifths just for organization? Make sense? Maybe take an approach like that or all scales and modes etc. Thanks

This seems like an over complicated approach. The patterns of inversions will remain constant regardless, of the key (root).

 

[kbob]

I stumbled over this Adam Nitti video a couple of weeks ago. Same topic, different presentation.

Minor Pentatonic Substitutions Over Minor Chords Part 1

 

[Wasnex]

15 keys? Did JSB know this when he composed the WTC?

There are 15 key signatures. Count them for yourself: Cb,Gb,Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C# (these are the majors)...see below.

It's true there are enharmonic key signatures. As this charts shows, C# Maj is enharmornic to Db Maj, F# Maj is enharmonic to Gb Maj, and B Maj is enharmonic to Cb Maj.

If you read music, you should be able to read and think in all 15 key signatures. The brain does not necessarily process enharmornic keys exactly the same, so don't assume that if you can read in Gb Major you can automatically read equally well in F# Major.

Normally string players are more comfortable in sharp keys and horn players are more comfortable in flat keys. Despite this, there was a time when I was more comfortable playing upright in the key of Gb Major than F# Major because we covered several very technical pieces in Gb.

 

[Ekulati]

There are 15 key signatures. Count them for yourself: Cb,Gb,Db,Ab,Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A,E,B,F#,C# (these are the majors)...see below.
View attachment 3958113
It's true there are enharmonic key signatures. As this charts shows, C# Maj is enharmornic to Db Maj, F# Maj is enharmonic to Gb Maj, and B Maj is enharmonic to Cb Maj.

If you read music, you should be able to read and think in all 15 key signatures. The brain does not necessarily process enharmornic keys exactly the same, so don't assume that if you can read in Gb Major you can automatically read equally well in F# Major.

Normally string players are more comfortable in sharp keys and horn players are more comfortable in flat keys. Despite this, there was a time when I was more comfortable playing upright in the key of Gb Major than F# Major because we covered several very technical pieces in Gb.

Ah yes, interesting way to look at it. With an almost MA in Theory (switched to Ethnomusicology) I never thought of it that way nor taught that to freshmen and sophomores in class. Wasn't in the materials being used at the time (90s). Of course, like many things, even music theory goes through periods of being in or out of vogue.

 

[Groove Master]

The inverted cycle of fifths(C-G-D) could be a good way to practice since it goes in the order of the extensions on major and minor chords. The regular cycle is always a must also

 

[Wasnex]

Ah yes, interesting way to look at it. With an almost MA in Theory (switched to Ethnomusicology) I never thought of it that way nor taught that to freshmen and sophomores in class. Wasn't in the materials being used at the time (90s). Of course, like many things, even music theory goes through periods of being in or out of vogue.

Are you saying the circle of 5ths was not taught at your school(s).

If you only listen to music, I would agree there are only 12 Major and 12 Minor keys. This is because there are 12 tones in our equal tempered music system. However, I was taught there were 15 keys signatures, which each represent a Major and Minor key as shown on the circle of 5ths. Of course the enharmonic spellings accounts for the three extra key signatures, but a musician must be prepared to think in all 30 keys IMHO.

Some argue there are more key signatures. I believe these were called theoretical keys at the school I attended. Actually I don't think this was part of the lesson plan; it was discussed in response to a student's question. Technically you can go on endlessly around the circle of 5ths adding sharps and flats. I see no point in using double accidentals in the key signature, but I was under the impression the circle of 5ths was widely taught.

From a practical standpoint, it probably makes sense to drop keys with seven accidentals, as it it is more sensibly to write in enharmonic keys with five accidentals instead of seven...and yet there is music written with seven sharps and seven flats.

Since you brought it up, here's an example from the well tempered clavier in C# Maj


Here's a piece that starts in Cb Maj

 

[Ekulati]

Are you saying the circle of 5ths was not taught at your school(s).

Ha! Honestly I don't remember. If the hallowed circle was taught it was likely week one. I learned the circle when I was a young child. In the University of California system, the theory approach was very much Schenker-influenced, the main text being Aldwell/Schacter I believe. The teaching of key signatures, I just dont recall.

But to the OP's point/needs, in my opinion he/she probably won't have much use for reading scores in 4, 5, or more flats or sharps. Now I was not an orchestral player, my primary instrument was classical guitar. Not much literature in the "extreme" signatures, as surely an orchestral player would encounter. But yes, one could argue there is value in learning all key "signatures," for some applications I'm sure.