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Double Bass Other pickups-questions..shadow/vektor/full circle/ehrlund

You might not like to hear that now, but in the beginning I told you that you get the weak and thin acoustic sound out of the Eminence with the Ehrlund.
Playing it purely acoustical gives you the low frequency vibrations via hands and body, but a listener only gets the frequencies from the top, missing a lot of the lows you feel as a player.
You never know how it sounds for the listeners unless someone else plays your bass and you need a third person as a listener to compare your playing sound with the one of the second player.
Well, don't put the Ehrlund away completely and get a listener that can direct you through the process from the recipient side. I know the sound for you is also important, but as long as you can play with a non-optimal sound the sound for your listeners is more important. You may need one or two days trying for yourself and several days trying with the group (with a backup pickup, just in case it doesn't work on stage).

For the Full Circle you need a new bridge. (I think I told you that earlier.) if you can do your job with the other bridge foot, do it and get a different bridge when it's over.
If the high strings are weak the soundpost might need to be placed more away from the bridge foot (or temporarily the bridge foot more away from the soundpost).
But first try changing the angle of the Full Circle. You get the complete sound spectrum possible with the Full Circle inside a quarter turn. If that doesn't help try moving the bridge a bit towards the fingerboard (a mm of two might be enough).

For the Shadow SH-950, get wood off the bridge leg, not the wing if you have one pointing inwards, otherwise you better take it off the top side. I know the Shadow is a bit thick, but that way you don't need to put in shims. Be very careful removing wood since it is easy to make the slot too wide. The difference between pushing the pickup in hard and sliding it in gently is extremely small, so check very often and file just a very little bit Shen the pickup fits in with hard pressure. You can shim a too wide slot, but it would be better if you don't need any shims.
Of course that needs some time and best a bench vise to hold the bridge while filing and checking the slot with the pickup.
You cannot do much harm to your bridge and don't expect to get a new bridge foot for you current bridge, you need a complete new bridge. Then the luthier can fit Full Circle and Shadow SH-950 to it and that way you have two working pickups, one for backup.

The Shadow NFX would have been a simple fit and with one foil only might sound better than what you heard. But now you have enough pickups and at least the Full Circle should work after tweaking it a bit probably better with a different bridge and a setup for the Eminence.
 
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True.. I'll post some pictures up later tonight

I think the guys in the band like the full circle 1000x better than the realist.. So take that realist fans haha.

I should try turning the full circle wheel but I just wanted it flush against the bridge and feet.. I'll have to show a picture..

Cause apparently the full circle can be threaded on either side (the feet of the bridge side..)

Anyway I'm very curious to see what the shadow sounds like since it has to go on both sides of the bridge which I think will solve my issue of lighter volume on the d and g strings..

Yes it could be bass setup post and all that but it sure sounded normal volume with the realist so I think it's just place,met and again ridiculous variables with how I set the pickup..

So I think my bass is setup fine.. I think it's the way the feet are on the full circle or something maybe cause the g foot is not set pro pearly now that I'm using another basses foot on the e-side..

Well whatever it is, it does work for now

And I'm already 10X happier with the full circle but yeah it's closer but I guess the bridge is the major culprit here. It seems if I get a new bridge the sound will change drastically., the type of wood and the size of the feet seem extremely critical with my bass.. Probably because it's a mini bass body..

I'll post up results when I get the shadow on..

Or find an interesting spot with the EHRLUND.. I may see what happens if I put it inside the f-hole! Haha

More later if anybody still cares..
 
I have a 5-string acoustic double bass that didn't went well with a single sided pickup ... until a bass luthier reset the soundpost a bit further away from the soundpost. From that time on, the single sided pickups worked well. The important thing is distance from bridge flog to soundpost, which can be changed as well by moving the bridge a bit towards the fingerboard. At least until you can visit a luthier to reposition the soundpost.

The Ehrlund doesn't work on every instrument but good spots are close to the outer side of the bass bar, but not on the bass bar itself. Distance from the bridge foot between 3 and 6 inches below. Another interesting position is exactly on the soundpost. Maybe not extremely natural but very clear and not too bad. At least worth a try, but very little changes in position can alter the sound drastically.
To avoid or limit feedback when trying a new position use the volume pot on the preamp.
The Ehrlund needs a lot of time and patience to find out where it works best. Think in weeks...
BTW, the Ehrlund has less bass than bridge mounted pickups. On bridge mounted pickup I always turn down the bass eq, for the Ehrlund the bass eq is in the neutral position.

Try to fit the Shadow in your spare time (probably even on the ship) so you can use it if the next ship does not have an Eminence bridge foot for you. Until it fits you can use the Full Circle on your current ship.
 
I should probably mention that the eminence basses seem to have glued in sound posts.. I could be wrong but I think the sound posts are fit in permanently because if they weren't, I guess that would defeat the purpose of them being a travel bass.. I mean I have the removable neck version and you have to take the bridgand strings off everytime you travel with it.. And the sound post, of course, doesn't fall out..

I'm sure the issues I'm having is all the bridge and it's variable things like if I have it equal pressure on both feet etc.. I don't have anything to check it for sure that it's straight or equal height and pressure on both feet...


I'm just going by how it looks.. I also notice the g foot side looks like it's in line with the treble f-hole

but the other foot(the -B-string side) foot looks like it's higher from the f-hole on the bass side...

Yet the bridge looks straight overall..


I definitely got worse tone tonight on the gig from moving the adjusters.. It was kinda back to boomy and then also even thin and nasal sounding on the G-string around the D and E where your thumb hits the body joint with the neck.. (7th fret...)


So the only thing that's been constant in this craziness to find a good sound a portable bass is that I can always find the bad spots for pickups.. Haha..


On the note about the EHRLUND, I haven't tried to put it on or near the table side or even on the sound post yet.. So I should try that but the EHRLUND appears to be the ultimate pickup for me Except that I am trying to use it on a non-full bodied bass!


I am too scared to Sand down the bridge to install the shadow on my own bass but I may try it with one of the other bridges of the other basses as a test..

I only have 400 sand paper and a tongue depressor to try to sand it down straight..

I am thinking to take my bass to a luthier in Lisbon and tell him to try to drill bigger holes in my bridge feet so the full circle adjusters will fit my actual bridge feet and also ask him to sand and fit the shadow to my bridge..

I just hope he is s good luthier as I know nothing about luthiers in Lisbon!

Do you think it's an ok idea to take the sand paper and put it on the body of my bass where my bridge would go and try to sand the feet to fit my bass?


I'll probably post this in setup and repair soon too...

All in all, I'm much closer to something usable than before..

I don't know why people still try to say the realist or lifeline is even in the running after some of the pickups I've now researched and heard...
 
You are right with the fixed soundpost for the removable neck Eminence, but I think they are only fixed by two pieces of foam, not glued in. Anyway not nice to move and refix it.
Try to move the G-side bridge foot a bit towards the fingerboard. One to two mm are enough.

The Full Circle can get nasal in the wrong rotational position. But you need to try that to find the best sounding position which usually is a quieter one.

I thought you might be able to find a bench and some files on the ship if you ask the crew. Don't use sandpaper, since you won't get a plan surface with it. The 400 sandpaper might be OK to go from hard pressure to lower pressure to insert the pickup, but even the I would prefer a fine file. It does nothing for you to open up the slot.
If you find a luthier in Lisbon, (s)he could prepare the wing slots of your bridge too.

Here is an address I found for a bass luthier in Lisbon:
Catarina Torres,
Rua da Correnteza, 39-A,
1400-077 Lisboa,
PORTUGAL,
Phone: 938 459 077,
Email: [email protected]
Web: 938 459 077

Best contact her a few days before, so she might be able to reserve some time for you in your small time window in Lisbon. She is not a bass builder, but plays double bass herself and learned how to do the setup tasks and restauration. Have a look at her web page. She worked for some museums doing restauration of a violoncello too.

Don't change anything on the other instruments you found. Borrowing the bridge foot for some days is OK, but leave the instruments exactly as they have been before when you leave. If you are anxious to file the bridge down, let it do the luthier in Lisbon.

Good luck and continue to find a good spot for the Ehrlund.
 
Ok thanks for that luthier.. I actually just got finished writing to a guy but now I'll have to see which luthier looks better..

I will try to have the luthiers sand or file the bridge..

Here is my situation right now..

image.jpg
image.jpg
 
Catarina has a (German?) collegue, Kai Dase, that may come more from the double bass luthier side than Catarine who does restaurations for wood winds and other stuff too.
But call them a few days in advance, Kai wrote on his page that this is needed for an appointment.

Don't file from the leg but from the wing. You need to slide it in from the front or back of the bridge which is a bit more unpleasant than my bridge where I can slide it in from the side. If you let the luthier do it, tell them the pickup needs parallel flat sides (at least as much as possible).

For the full circle they may be able to plan the top of your bridge leg, glue some wood onto it to get back the height and drill the hole. Also tell them, that you need a flat surface perpendicular to the adjuster axis where the Full Circle presses against. There is also an instruction sheet how to install the Full Circle. If you haven't got it with the Full Circle, download it from the Fishman website AND SHOW IT TO THEM. Don't forget that.

Good luck, maybe you can rescue the bridge that way.
 
Ok thanks,

By the way for the full circle wheel in the picture-

My actual foot is in on the right side with the small hole..

So do you think luthiers could just file out or drill a bigger hole for the bigger full circle wheel?

It's the correct length but just the hole is too small..



I will tell the luthier these things and I have a week before I go there so I should be ok to contact them now..


Oh and I used the full circle again tonight and it was too boomy and apparently it is sensitive to where you put it.. So I'm going to have to find a good spot fir the bridge and turn the wheel..

I just want a pickup that sets up and doesn't change sound every night! That's why I'm hoping the shadow in the wings or the EHRLUND will solve that..

And also I tried the EHRLUND preamp with the full circle and it was very interesting.. It definitely made it louder.. But then far too much boomy bass...
 
The Shadow will keep the sound unless the contact surfaces are not plan and you move the pickup a bit.

The Ehrlund can change the sound if it falls down and you couldn't put it exactly at the same position or if the tack-balls get compressed. So you need some experience remounting it and best mark the position with a pencil on the top.

The Full Circle will stay best, because you won't accidentally turn the adjuster under string pressure. But mark the rotational position too, just in case you need the adjusters to adjust...

Good luck with the luthiers and tell us what they did and how it works for you.
 
Got the shadow installed.. Will put pictures in 2 days..

Sounds good only using the 1 element..

So why do they even make the twin element version?? I have it but now I have to just leave one out..


I still prefer the full circle I think..

Either way the final update is Got a better sound now.. Not exactly what I was looking for, but probably the best I can have now and 100x better than before..


Full circle seems to win on the eminence bass..!
 
So why do they even make the twin element version?? I have it but now I have to just leave one out.
Reason #1: the original design by Underwood used two elements and this was the first model by Shadow (I got the prototype by the first owner). If you look for the Underwood, a lot of people say it sounds better with one element, but it's not always the case. So better serve more customers. But after a while Shadow also built a one element pickup for those who don't want a dangling 2nd element.
Initially I needed a 2 element pickup before the soundpost was moved further away from the bridge leg on my 5-string acoustic double bass.
So the two element pickup was safer in your situation, since you cannot try both in a shop and needed them urgently.

BTW, I tried the Shadow SH-965NFX with the element on the bass side only and this sounded much clearer and nicer than both elements together.
I'm sure the recording you heard was made with both elements, since this is the way it is intended to use.

You might want to follow Mike Arnopols discussion about the Yamahiko, since this is the original, the Full Circle is the clone. He wants to try it with two elements, also amplified individually. For my Clevinger EUB DIY two-element bridge foot pickup I put the signals into an impedance buffer individually before mixing them. A parallel connection of two elements in front of the impedance buffer didn't sound good, it was better after the impedance buffers.
 
Back in the days when we only had a couple of pickup choices, I tried the lowest price one; it sounded mediocre. next I went for the most expensive one; all the top guys I looked up to used it and they sounded great. I still sounded mediocre, so I learned to live with it and worked like crazy to produce a sound that I liked and went about my business tying to be the best player I could. Today I have 25 different pickup choices, but on the days I'm not getting the sound I like.....I accept that it is still not the pickup....!
 
Back in the days when we only had a couple of pickup choices, I tried the lowest price one; it sounded mediocre. next I went for the most expensive one; all the top guys I looked up to used it and they sounded great. I still sounded mediocre, so I learned to live with it and worked like crazy to produce a sound that I liked and went about my business tying to be the best player I could. Today I have 25 different pickup choices, but on the days I'm not getting the sound I like.....I accept that it is still not the pickup....!


+1 I started with the Barcus Berry Silver Bar and putty. Even with the Barcus Pre Amp it was very thin sounding. The Polytone came next, but for my particular instrument, the knurled brass extension screw was to long to fit into the arch of my "5/8" bridge, and had to be modified.

This frustrated me so much that I went with a Toneninges Four element magnetic pickup for several years. Not a great sound, but it was better than either the Barcus Berry or the Polytone. Then the Underwood came along and that was a game changer, expecially combined

with the Walter Woods MI-100-8 I purchased, because Walter matched his amps input impedance to the Underwood. There was still one issue, you couldn't bow with the Underwood, so when the Realist became available, it was a second major game changer, because it worked

well for Arco playing. Now with the Ehrlund EAP I've got what I was searching for. So it took around 40 years of experimentation, and during this time I've played some wonderful concerts, because ultimately, the sound comes from your hands, heart and head. I always knew

my bass sounded wonderful, when played sans amplification. It just took many years for the technology to catch up with the sound, my bass already had. So yes, the sound is in the bass and your technique, but DB pickups have really advanced in recent years. Older pickups

could really get in the way of a decent sound. Just my take.

Ric
 
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Ok that solves that.

Ok yes, Forget the Vektor, too many variables.. pressure and moving it all the time from setting the bridge back up etc..

Forget the Wilson, there won't be any holes drilled in the bridge..

Forget the Single element version of the shadow because I'm basing my experience with the K&K bassmax (only one element on the bass side wing) and it was only loud on the E and A string.. the G-string was too soft.. So i'm assuming the same thing will happen if I get the Shadow single element..

I am considering the Shadow 950 double element because I don't want the same thing to happen with the single side wing element.. I think I need both wings filled..

I also like the sound of the Shadow 950 compared to the other one that goes under the feet of the bridge.. the comparison videos on youtube are so obvious to decide which is better..

My Bow Arco playing is limited to basically long tones and drones and endings of songs ... occasionally there is a bow solo etc.. But I do want whatever I get to have a nice sound.. (as you've seen from my my other threads i'm getting the ehrlund!)

thanks for the reply.. ( i need a good secondary backup pickup) I'm tired of the Realist,Lifeline,K&Kbassmax,Fishman bp-100, or anything that sounds twangy and quacky and muffled..
what if you put the bass maxx on the other side of the bridge? thats how i use it
 
Full circle still beats the bridge wing pickups.. So that won't solve the sound issue I am hearing.. (A twangy sound from piezo pickups)

If I can get the full circle to sound a little bit better that would be perfect..

The G string is a little bit funny sounding and when I use the double element shadow in the wing slots, I get the phase cancelation ..
 
Took my bass to David gauge in New York..

They added wood to fix the feet and filed down the nut and filed down the slots of the strings on the bridge..


Full circle pickup is now closer to sounding normal and the bass feels he closest it's ever to a real bass now.. Not too shabby.. I may even be able to retry the realist pickup again now that the feet are straight!

The only last major thing still with my situation is the bridge appears to easy to move/tilt which causes major drastic changes with pickups that require pressure from the bridge at a specific angle..

This is a smaller bridge so that must be why..

image.jpg
 
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thats not a bad idea.. but I would probably have to have the bass in the luthier's shop.. and then make sure it's absolutely perfect and then have him/her make a stick that holds the bridge in place..

I especially could use something like that because I am always taking the bridge off for traveling...

there is probably some reason why but if they had just used proper normal big sized feet like my other 2 uprights.. this wouldn't be an issue..

I know its a smaller bass.. but still this has been an issue with all the smaller bridges..(with the Palatino bass and I've tried 4 other Eminences also and had problematic bridges -feet weren't completly flush against the pickups and the body so it causes sound issues...)