Where are you setting the blend on the B3K? You might be better off with the Boss BB-1X Bass Driver. It leaves the bottom end alone. Boosting above 3kHz can help. Playing more than root can also help.
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Overdrive not cutting through the mix
- Thread starter epic!
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More volume leads to guitarists adding more volume leads to drummer hitting harder leads to bassist adding more volume leads to loss of hearing.
Find your sonic pocket.
Find your sonic pocket.
I play in a heavy metal group with two guitarists using JCM900s. Get a clean blend and a high-mid/treble focused overdrive, 50/50 mix.
I use an MXR M80+ with everything at noon, I don't like how it sounds soloed, the drive sounds scratchy and abbrassive. However in the mix it works really well, I've tried replacing it but nothing has beaten it yet.
Start with just your sansamp and increase the gain and crank the treble and presence, or do the same with the Darkglass. Most of this extra top end will be lost in the guitars so don't worry if it sounds too harsh soloed. The distorted sound will blend in with the guitars and your bass will just sound clean most of the time if you are following what they are playing. You will hear it more when you deviate away from what they're doing.
I use an MXR M80+ with everything at noon, I don't like how it sounds soloed, the drive sounds scratchy and abbrassive. However in the mix it works really well, I've tried replacing it but nothing has beaten it yet.
Start with just your sansamp and increase the gain and crank the treble and presence, or do the same with the Darkglass. Most of this extra top end will be lost in the guitars so don't worry if it sounds too harsh soloed. The distorted sound will blend in with the guitars and your bass will just sound clean most of the time if you are following what they are playing. You will hear it more when you deviate away from what they're doing.
Depending on your band sound, playing clean in those parts where you get buried might be the better option.
When the guitars are heavily distorted and the drummer is playing lots of cymbals, the frequency that gets emphasized by most OD effects is already full to the brim. In this scenario, a clean bass adds to the substance and definition of the low end.
Now add an overdrive that sounds good when playing solo: The bass gets a bit wooly, the edges of your signal a bit frayed and the top end gets that nasty sizzle that is making it a joy to listen to as long as the bass plays solo.
Add that to the aforementioned mix: That nasty sizzle is completely gone. It is well hidden in the guitar distortion harmonics and the cymbal hits, where it adds to the noise, but not really contributing something essential to the band sound. Now shifting attention to the body of your signal: It is a bit wooly a bit ragged. It has less definition and less heft in the low end.
Stepping on that pedal actually made your bass contribute to the band noise, but at the cost of low end definition. You became another rhythm guitarist.
This can have benefits, if you know how to use it.
There are a myriad of overdrive pedals and most of them can do more than one sound, so there are a couple of myriads of bass overdrive sounds.
What you might want to look into is a sound that does not represent big and nasty idling chainsaw,
but rather a bellowing moose in heat.
With the sizzle sitting at a lower frequency, which will get you a throaty sound, you might bark yourself through the mix if your guitar player does not push lows too much.
I've gotten good results with the Sansamp as the drive pedal. It sounds more like amp and cab are on their last legs and just about to blow out, but works great with distorted guitars.
When the guitars are heavily distorted and the drummer is playing lots of cymbals, the frequency that gets emphasized by most OD effects is already full to the brim. In this scenario, a clean bass adds to the substance and definition of the low end.
Now add an overdrive that sounds good when playing solo: The bass gets a bit wooly, the edges of your signal a bit frayed and the top end gets that nasty sizzle that is making it a joy to listen to as long as the bass plays solo.
Add that to the aforementioned mix: That nasty sizzle is completely gone. It is well hidden in the guitar distortion harmonics and the cymbal hits, where it adds to the noise, but not really contributing something essential to the band sound. Now shifting attention to the body of your signal: It is a bit wooly a bit ragged. It has less definition and less heft in the low end.
Stepping on that pedal actually made your bass contribute to the band noise, but at the cost of low end definition. You became another rhythm guitarist.
This can have benefits, if you know how to use it.
There are a myriad of overdrive pedals and most of them can do more than one sound, so there are a couple of myriads of bass overdrive sounds.
What you might want to look into is a sound that does not represent big and nasty idling chainsaw,
but rather a bellowing moose in heat.
With the sizzle sitting at a lower frequency, which will get you a throaty sound, you might bark yourself through the mix if your guitar player does not push lows too much.
I've gotten good results with the Sansamp as the drive pedal. It sounds more like amp and cab are on their last legs and just about to blow out, but works great with distorted guitars.
Those sansamp preamps can really cut mids if you’re not careful. Run that with as little mid cut/less bass boost as possible.
Like others are saying….do the opposite of what the guitars are doing….fill the sonic space someone else isn’t already in. If you have low heavy/distorted guitars, than have the bass tone set the same way, you’ll have the “and justice for all” effect
You're fortunate to be in a forum with such experienced folks! And while I wanted to chime in it appears everyone has already said what I was going to say!
If you're looking to "cut" in those sections, I'd say think about those sections more from a dynamics standpoint, overdrive will get lost, but maybe adding a slight boost of the lows or your overall volume will help fill those sections out more without getting too crazy. I weirdly use the Damnation Audio MBD-2 for this; run it mostly clean but it fattens up the bass and adds a sheen to the top end without being this large volume boost with a ton of grit. Makes choruses and big sections just punch a little more without creating a mud fest
If you're looking to "cut" in those sections, I'd say think about those sections more from a dynamics standpoint, overdrive will get lost, but maybe adding a slight boost of the lows or your overall volume will help fill those sections out more without getting too crazy. I weirdly use the Damnation Audio MBD-2 for this; run it mostly clean but it fattens up the bass and adds a sheen to the top end without being this large volume boost with a ton of grit. Makes choruses and big sections just punch a little more without creating a mud fest
blend is about 75%. B3K doesn’t kill the low end that I can tell. One of the reasons I like it.
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Like others have have, it's finding that perfect sonic space for OD to cut through and not get lost in the mix. It took many different pedals and EQ tweakings for me to find what worked for our band, and what works for me may not work for others.
I’m trying to get a distortion sound similar to the new Russian Circles album Gnosis.
edit: pretty sure I had a stroke when I typed this out the first time.
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I know Brian is using a clean and dirty signal, Ampeg solid state for clean I believe and one of the Darkglass micro heads for dirt. A model T clone might be helpful. Dirt also tends to sound a bit unique w the aluminum necks, clank and grind and etc
I agree 100%. Harris and Ellefson cut thru heavy guitars and their tones are very clean. The clean cuts thru the dirt, and the dirt mixes with the dirt.
A moving bassline shows up better through heavy guitars, something like A C# D C# under a bar of A Major.
Cave Puppy
"Humph Bo, he's wond!" - John Lennon
Cut the extreme lows and extreme highs and boost mids - all before going into your dirt. And what others have said. Frequency masking does seem to be happening in your case. I had an EHX bass muff that I got rid of for this very reason. If I would’ve known then about the advice that I just gave here I would’ve kept that pedal.
I can only find small Google-pictures of that easily right now, but attack is bottom left, and threshold is top right. Top left is 'level', maybe equivalent to ratio, but I'm not sure. I use an Oberheim GM-400 rack unit for mine..
Doing this by ear is best, there's only a few controls. The idea is to get them so if you play rhythmically, emphasising certain beats like a drummer uses a snare drum, you should find them hard enough in sound compared to the less-strong notes. There may be more than one combination of settings that works, so trying it is the only way to be sure. Just don't lose track of what you want from it..
A lot of the time it's not just EQ that helps cut through, but dynamics, which is what the compressor helps with most, especially before overdrive. Less overdrive is needed to get the same edge.
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Yes. JJ Burnel does a lot of octaving and other tricks with intervals which drive things forward, even when not being obviously melodic. It can be tough picking out this detail in Toiler On The Sea but it's very easily felt when it happens. A much more obvious variant is in Hanging Around. Inverting intervals can do some amazing things. The growly low notes in Down In The Sewer's first section.. Could have worked almost as well an octave higher, but just NOT doing the expected thing can help cut through. Keeps the mind agile, for player and listeners too. But, best not to make it too busy. One tiny change can make a big difference, specially if it's not the same next time it happens.
Burnel has a rep for having a very up-front sound, but it's actually very low key a lot of the time, but he still finds ways to get through. Mind you, there IS only one guitar to compete with.
Lots of other stuff too though. Great keyboard sounds...The point being: this is not a thing that any effects will do. If this is lacking, effects can't do anything to help put it there. If it is there, they might be useful to exaggerate it. If they mush it out, no-one gains anything.
Awesome! Thank you (and everyone else) for your input.
