Overtones from E string

[GabrielPbass]

Hi, I bought labella Jamerson strings (052-110). I put them on my bass, the A D G strings sounds fine and awesome, love that tone BUT, the E strings sounds out of tune, either open or fretted notes, saddles are adjusted (intonation) I had to wide the nut slot for this string (forgot to mention, I use a Tagima P bass tw66 model). But I don't think the culprit is the nut since all notes sounds weird, guess what? When I use a tuner it says it's in tune, even the fretted notes but my ears definitely says otherwise. I bought this strings from stringsbymail. Did I get a defective string? I'm from Brazil, if I have to replace this string it's gonna be a pain the A** since it's from USA. Is there a way I can record an audio so you guys can hear it?

I tried lowering the pickup, didn't work. When I first put the string I wrapped in the tuning peg using my hand, I heard that it could twist the string? I have removed the string and put it again but this time not wrapping with my hand, still sounds weird, kinda out of phase/tune and maybe when played with a pick there's a chorus effect? When I play octaves like 3rd fret from E string and 5 fret from D string, sounds horrible out of tune, but the tuner says it's in tune??

When I play it muted either palm mute or using a sponge at the bridge the sound gets much better like 80%

Guys sorry for my grammar

 

[michael_t]

Did you make sure to set the witness point properly on the E both at the saddle and at the nut as well as make sure it's not twisted? I know it's tricky with a thick and stiff string like the Jamerson flat 110E, but those two things are essential parts of the setup.

 

[GabrielPbass]

Did you make sure to set the witness point properly on the E both at the saddle and at the nut as well as make sure it's not twisted? I know it's tricky with a thick and stiff string like the Jamerson flat 110E, but those two things are essential parts of the setup.

By witness point do you mean bending down the strings a little ahead of the saddle and nut? If so, then yes, it went flat then I retune it but still sounds out of tune.

I took some photos, I had to move the saddle way back to get the intonation right at the 12th fret

 

[GabrielPbass]

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It's funny cause through my audio interface it sounds better than through my amp, but it still can be heard, what you guys think?

 

[TheRealGru]

Is twisting possible on flats? If so, you probably twisted E string while installing it. My guess. @michael_t can elaborate further. He helped me last time I did that.

 

[Wasnex]

It sounds like you are describing inharmonicity. Inharmonicity results when string stiffness starts to cause the vibration to be more like a solid than a perfect string. Essentially the vibrations of the harmonics are out of tune with the fundamental. This typically becomes more of a problem as the string become fatter and shorter. The B string on my bass manifests noticeable inharmonicity by the 5th fret. This problem does not occur on my E string till 10th or 12th fret.

AFAIK string vibrations have two modes. One mode involves and impulse that travels along the length of the string, which is reflected back when it hits the stop. This is called a transverse wave.

The other mode is called a standing wave.

Multiple standing waves occur at different harmonic frequencies. If the string is ideal/perfect, the harmonics are in tune. Of course no string is perfect. As the string length is shortened, stiffness becomes a more significant factor. The vibration mode becomes more beam-like, and less string-like, which pushes the harmonics out of tune with the fundamental.

I believe pickup height and imperfections in the string can also magnify the problem. For example, if the string has a broken or kinked winding it can cause a node to form in the wrong location.

If this is a new problem, you may have a bad string. Or if you are changing from round wounds to flats, this may be a characteristic of how the new strings will work on your bass. AFAIK flats are a bit stiffer than rounds, and inharmonicity is a more of a factor with flats.

 

[GabrielPbass]

Is twisting possible on flats? If so, you probably twisted E string while installing it. My guess. @michael_t can elaborate further. He helped me last time I did that.

If it's twisted than I think it's over, because I have restrung it 3 times

 

[GabrielPbass]

It sounds like you are describing inharmonicity. Inharmonicity results when string stiffness starts to cause the vibration to be more like a solid than a perfect string. Essentially the vibrations of the harmonics are out of tune with the fundamental. This typically becomes more of a problem as the string become fatter and shorter. The B string on my bass manifests noticeable inharmonicity by the 5th fret. This problem does not occur on my E string till 10th or 12th fret.

AFAIK string vibrations have two modes. One mode involves and impulse that travels along the length of the string, which is reflected back when it hits the stop. This is called a transverse wave.


View attachment 4481035


The other mode is called a standing wave.
View attachment 4481036
Multiple standing waves occur at different harmonic frequencies. If the string is ideal/perfect, the harmonics are in tune. Of course no string is perfect. As the string length is shortened, stiffness becomes a more significant factor. The vibration mode becomes more beam-like, and less string-like, which pushes the harmonics out of tune with the fundamental.

I believe pickup height and imperfections in the string can also magnify the problem. For example, if the string has a broken or kinked winding it can cause a node to form in the wrong location.

If this is a new problem, you may have a bad string. Or if you are changing from round wounds to flats, this may be a characteristic of how the new strings will work on your bass. AFAIK flats are a bit stiffer than rounds, and inharmonicity is a more of a factor with flats.

I think you're right, the previous strings was rotosound swing bass 105-45 (rounds) and the E string used to sound JUST A LITTLE off, I guess I should have tried regular flats and not the heavy Guage

 

[BarfanyShart]

I have a .128 LaBella flatwound on a shortscale tune to a low C, and it starts doing this inharmonic effect real bad at around the 10th fret. Yours actually sounds fine to me, maybe because I've already adapted to the wobbliness of the overtones on my big string. I used to hear it all over and it drove me nuts, but I think it gets much better after a few months once the string breaks in. Flats take a while to break in, at least a couple months, some brands up to a year.

 

[JKos]

I fixed a Chromes E string that was doing this by untwisting it. Not just not putting any twist in while stringing it, but actually untwisting. I tried a 1/4 turn of untwist at a time. It helped tremendously.

Trying to remember how much I ended up at... I think 3/4 turn untwist.

 

[7dollarbologna]

I'd put a lighter gauge set of la Bella's on your bass - those Jamerson's are literal bridge cables. Here's an old thread on this subject:


La Bella Deep talkin' James Jamerson set

 

[doran.dragic]

It sounds like you are describing inharmonicity. Inharmonicity results when string stiffness starts to cause the vibration to be more like a solid than a perfect string. Essentially the vibrations of the harmonics are out of tune with the fundamental. This typically becomes more of a problem as the string become fatter and shorter. The B string on my bass manifests noticeable inharmonicity by the 5th fret. This problem does not occur on my E string till 10th or 12th fret.

AFAIK string vibrations have two modes. One mode involves and impulse that travels along the length of the string, which is reflected back when it hits the stop. This is called a transverse wave.


View attachment 4481035


The other mode is called a standing wave.
View attachment 4481036
Multiple standing waves occur at different harmonic frequencies. If the string is ideal/perfect, the harmonics are in tune. Of course no string is perfect. As the string length is shortened, stiffness becomes a more significant factor. The vibration mode becomes more beam-like, and less string-like, which pushes the harmonics out of tune with the fundamental.

I believe pickup height and imperfections in the string can also magnify the problem. For example, if the string has a broken or kinked winding it can cause a node to form in the wrong location.

If this is a new problem, you may have a bad string. Or if you are changing from round wounds to flats, this may be a characteristic of how the new strings will work on your bass. AFAIK flats are a bit stiffer than rounds, and inharmonicity is a more of a factor with flats.

Thank you so much for this explanation. I was aware of this phenomenon but I had no idea what's causing it and I didn't know it had a name. I've been obsessing with this for years since a couple of basses I own or used to own have this issue.

 

[truand85]

I had the exact same experience with my deep talking flats.

1) Witness points. Don't do it once, that E string is morbidly obese, it needs exercise. Do the points, tune, bend the string, do the points, tune again. Repeat 3-4 times.

2) Even with the above, if the string is brand new it's going to be a few hours of playing hard before the stiffness eases off. Play it hard, do the witness points, retune.

Still sound bad? Repeat 1 and 2 above. It took mine 3-4 hours of doing this before it started to sing.

More tips: wrap the string properly on the peg and make sure it joins the nut from the bottom of the coil, not the top, and as low on the peg as possible, then do your witness points (front/back of saddle at the bridge, front/back at the nut, and push down/to the left at the peg). Fret the 1st, scoop the string at the pickup, pull gently up. Move your pulling hand gently from bridge to neck a few times. Then tune, redo witness points, tune/intonate again.

Don't give up on them! I was ready to, and even bought lower gauge flats, but if you like the way the A D and G strings sound, give the E a chance.

 

[iiipopes]

It sounds like you are describing inharmonicity. Inharmonicity results when string stiffness starts to cause the vibration to be more like a solid than a perfect string. Essentially the vibrations of the harmonics are out of tune with the fundamental. This typically becomes more of a problem as the string become fatter and shorter. The B string on my bass manifests noticeable inharmonicity by the 5th fret. This problem does not occur on my E string till 10th or 12th fret.

AFAIK string vibrations have two modes. One mode involves and impulse that travels along the length of the string, which is reflected back when it hits the stop. This is called a transverse wave.


View attachment 4481035


The other mode is called a standing wave.
View attachment 4481036
Multiple standing waves occur at different harmonic frequencies. If the string is ideal/perfect, the harmonics are in tune. Of course no string is perfect. As the string length is shortened, stiffness becomes a more significant factor. The vibration mode becomes more beam-like, and less string-like, which pushes the harmonics out of tune with the fundamental.

I believe pickup height and imperfections in the string can also magnify the problem. For example, if the string has a broken or kinked winding it can cause a node to form in the wrong location.

If this is a new problem, you may have a bad string. Or if you are changing from round wounds to flats, this may be a characteristic of how the new strings will work on your bass. AFAIK flats are a bit stiffer than rounds, and inharmonicity is a more of a factor with flats.

THIS!!! ^ Here is the thread discussing inharmonicity with Dr. Kemp of St. Andrews University, Scotland, who has researched inharmonicity, and showing my application of wraps with golfer's lead tape to duplicate his experiments and findings in the manner of his Lump bass strings; post #21 is the dialog with Dr. Kemp:
Physicists develop bass string theory | TalkBass.com

 

[drumvsbass]

Surprised that no one else has mentioned that your E string saddle is pretty far back... Possible culprit.
Is that where your bass intonates?

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hi, I bought labella Jamerson strings (052-110). I put them on my bass, the A D G strings sounds fine and awesome, love that tone BUT, the E strings sounds out of tune, either open or fretted notes, saddles are adjusted (intonation) I had to wide the nut slot for this string (forgot to mention, I use a Tagima P bass tw66 model). But I don't think the culprit is the nut since all notes sounds weird, guess what? When I use a tuner it says it's in tune, even the fretted notes but my ears definitely says otherwise. I bought this strings from stringsbymail. Did I get a defective string? I'm from Brazil, if I have to replace this string it's gonna be a pain the A** since it's from USA. Is there a way I can record an audio so you guys can hear it?

I tried lowering the pickup, didn't work. When I first put the string I wrapped in the tuning peg using my hand, I heard that it could twist the string? I have removed the string and put it again but this time not wrapping with my hand, still sounds weird, kinda out of phase/tune and maybe when played with a pick there's a chorus effect? When I play octaves like 3rd fret from E string and 5 fret from D string, sounds horrible out of tune, but the tuner says it's in tune??

When I play it muted either palm mute or using a sponge at the bridge the sound gets much better like 80%

Guys sorry for my grammar

Loosen the string, back it off the peg, pull it out of the saddle a little, twist it into proper position, and re string it. It's well more than likely twisted.

If that doesn't fix your problem, then you have a dead string.

 

[GabrielPbass]

I had the exact same experience with my deep talking flats.

1) Witness points. Don't do it once, that E string is morbidly obese, it needs exercise. Do the points, tune, bend the string, do the points, tune again. Repeat 3-4 times.

2) Even with the above, if the string is brand new it's going to be a few hours of playing hard before the stiffness eases off. Play it hard, do the witness points, retune.

Still sound bad? Repeat 1 and 2 above. It took mine 3-4 hours of doing this before it started to sing.

More tips: wrap the string properly on the peg and make sure it joins the nut from the bottom of the coil, not the top, and as low on the peg as possible, then do your witness points (front/back of saddle at the bridge, front/back at the nut, and push down/to the left at the peg). Fret the 1st, scoop the string at the pickup, pull gently up. Move your pulling hand gently from bridge to neck a few times. Then tune, redo witness points, tune/intonate again.

Don't give up on them! I was ready to, and even bought lower gauge flats, but if you like the way the A D and G strings sound, give the E a chance.

I have tried that again, I don't think that's the problem, but I'll keep the string for a few months to see if it gets better

Surprised that no one else has mentioned that your E string saddle is pretty far back... Possible culprit.
Is that where your bass intonates?

Only with this thick string, I noticed that the wrapping at the end of the string rests on the saddle, making a sharp angle, don't know if that's the problem, I tried moving it forward didn't work, only sounded bad, I'm starting to think that my bass wasn't design for big strings haha :/

 

[GabrielPbass]

Loosen the string, back it off the peg, pull it out of the saddle a little, twist it into proper position, and re string it. It's well more than likely twisted.

If that doesn't fix your problem, then you have a dead string.

Yes, the ball end did spin, but still it doesn't sound right to me. I recorded a few basslines with and without a sponge under the strings it sounds much better when recorded, specially in a mix, I wish you guys could hear it in person, it's a lot worse

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Yes, the ball end did spin, but still it doesn't sound right to me. I recorded a few basslines with and without a sponge under the strings it sounds much better when recorded, specially in a mix, I wish you guys could hear it in person, it's a lot worse

Dead string? It does happen. Well more often than you'd expect.

 

[bfields]

Your recording sounds fantastic to me.

It's true that thicker strings have partials that aren't exactly harmonic. Ideally they'd be exact multiples of the fundamental frequency, but they actually end up a little sharper than that, and that difference is bigger the stiffer the string. You hear about this more with pianos (google "piano stretch tuning") which have a huge range (the lowest note is the same as the low A on a drop-tuned 5-string) and have very stiff bass strings. The bass strings on a piano are tuned so that they're a little flat; my understanding is that otherwise if you played left-hand octaves, for example, they'd clash with themselves. I wonder if "stretch tuning" would make any sense on a bass? If you tune the E string down a bit, does it make those octaves sound better to you?

I'm not hearing it on your recording, but I probably don't know how to listen for string inharmonicity. I wonder whether maybe you just need some time to get used to the sound of the new strings?