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P and J basses get lost in live mixes?

#61
It was already said repeatedly in the first handful of posts, but the notion that an electric instrument gets lost in the mix has SO much more to do with the people than the instruments. With an acoustic instrument in an acoustic setting, I can see it. The natural sound may not cut through the other instruments. ...and there really isn't anything you can do about it.

With electric, we have volume controls (which can be used to get more of a high toned pickup at the bridge or more of a thicker one at the neck), we have tone controls (at a minimum) and all that is before we leave the instrument. Once we hit the amp, there's another opportunity to further shape the tone to fit the situation. In a venue where you might be mic'd up, then there is yet another opportunity to fit in the mix.

Now, one type of bass may lend itself to more easily fitting into a scenario than another without touching the EQ knobs on the amp, but buying a new bass sounds wildly more expensive than turning a few knobs. Some amps, yeah, may have only bass and treble controls. You may want to invest in an EQ pedal to shape your tone even further.

I just look for a bass that has the right "texture" on the tone. It's growl, rasp, clarity. Whatever. The rest is all EQ. Get a PJ if you dig it. Case in Point, Tony Franklin has played a P bass modified into a PJ for, well, ever. He CUTS through the mix.
 
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#63
I have found that a lot of sound guys will use a preset on some boards from Allan and Heath, or Midas when they see a P or a Jazz, and those presets tend to favour a scooped tone which can get lost in the mix.

One time I told the on-stage bass player (we were all part of a showcase) to turn the low-mids up and turn the bass control down on the house GK rig. Just a touch of boost at very low volume made him punch through from the stage and the sound guys didn't mind at all, because they were still getting the massive clean bottom end from the DI they wanted.

Marcello is partially right though. A Stingray 5 with its eq all set in the detents is still quite aggressive in a band setting. There is actually a little less fundamental bottom end coming out of an SR5 because of the pickup design and its placement. I don't believe he's shilling - he's a genuinely nice guy just hustling like everyone else in music. The SR5 has a very aggressive mid sound and a decent amount of upper-mid clank.

Lots of players will run Jazz basses with both pickups full-on and never question it. That setting can lead to being lost in the mix - especially if there's a big difference between the bridge and neck pickup heights from the strings. Or Precision basses (or PJ) basses with flat EQ settings on their amps.

Those people who insist on running rigs with complicated EQ set to what they believe is "flat" on the dials are often doing themselves a disservice playing live. Everyone should really experiment with all the dials on their amp and find that sweet spot where you cut through in a band but don't sound like a dying pheasant up there on stage.
 
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#65
punchdrunk said:
As a Pbass aficionado, and having also had/used a plethora of other types of basses, I'd say that a proper Pbass has an inherent mid focus that not only cuts through a mix, but also perfectly slots into most mixes in a near tetris type fashion (hence its ubiquity from stage to studio). To me (operative) it's a much more congruent sound than either the overtly nasal stingray vibe (which due to its pu placement is inescapable... not saying that's a bad thing for you ray fanboys) or the potentially synthetic timbre of an active bass whose onboard EQ, with its proclivity towards added noise, is sent to the FOH. The P can cut like a knife if plucked near the bridge, or blend into a mix like butter if plucked towards the neck (granted all basses produce that effect to varying degrees, but the p has a design that simply works). I'm not particularly up on my Jbass game lately as even tho I have good one, I never reach for it, so I'll not comment on it.
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GREAT POST
 
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#67
boilingTheDead said:
sorry for the trashy title.
I stumbled across this video on yt:


he mentoines that a P or a J bass can sometimes kinda get lost in the mix live, but his stingray always cuts through.

Would you agree on that?

...I mean of course it depends on the situation, but generally I heard better live mixes with stingrays or simular basses. Maybe the pickup placement is just ideal for live scenarios and PA systems? I can remember a variety of smaller concerts where the bassist played a pbass (fingerstyle) and it had soo less definition that I could only feel the air move but could not hear the notes clearly, even though I stood pretty close to the PA. I wonder If the tone would have been more "hearable" over distance with a pickup closer to the bridge.
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Having played Fender Basses for almost 1/2 a century, with hundreds off live and studio recordings to to prove it, no, Fender Basses do not get lost in the mix when used with a barely competent or better sound tech mixing the sound.
 
#69
Sound guy's never want you to send them the line out of your amp. Post EQ they hate that. Sometime you just have to use the direct box and smile and worry about having fun in a festival situation. After a while we started touring with our own sound guy, then things started getting good. Even so a good sounding bass will sound great through a DI and get the point across just fine. If you aren't cutting in the mix break out your pick and rock the house!!!! imo
 
#70
boilingTheDead said:
sorry for the trashy title.
I stumbled across this video on yt:


he mentoines that a P or a J bass can sometimes kinda get lost in the mix live, but his stingray always cuts through.

Would you agree on that?

...I mean of course it depends on the situation, but generally I heard better live mixes with stingrays or simular basses. Maybe the pickup placement is just ideal for live scenarios and PA systems? I can remember a variety of smaller concerts where the bassist played a pbass (fingerstyle) and it had soo less definition that I could only feel the air move but could not hear the notes clearly, even though I stood pretty close to the PA. I wonder If the tone would have been more "hearable" over distance with a pickup closer to the bridge.
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Seriously???

How many fenders have you seen used live? How many recorded?

A shitload.

If any bass is "lost in the mix", the sound guy screwed up. There all kinds of knobs on the bass, amp, and mixing board to ensure this doesnt happen.

I mean really, 2 of the most widely used basses in history.....you think this is the case of getting "lost in the mix"

I bet you seen Rush live and asked why you couldnt hear Geddy's Jazz....right?
 
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#71
Not very popular ? Almost every live performance I see on TV has an Ampeg Refrigerator and bass player standing in front of it with one or another type of Fender bass. Even on NBC who is a competitor of CBS who owns Fender.

As for any sort of guitar getting lost in the mix, your amp and tone shaper accessories such as my humble BP90 have very much to do with how it sounds out of the speaker. I have an Ampeg BA-210 V2 and a Marshall IBS200 sitting on top of an Ampeg BSE115T and the tone is very different between the two. No mistaking, those two combos are so different they would never confuse the back to the amp test.

So one would have to ask how this guitar would sound through this or that amp /speaker combo. And the answer would 99% of the time be "You just have to try it and find out." LOL

Slater said:
That's probably why they're not very popular. ;)
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#72
If I ever lost my P and J basses I'd be sad. But if they were lost, it wouldn't be in the mix. I can always find em there.

Joking aside, I do love the bite of a ray (and a G&L MFD). To my old ears, the extra bite I get lets me hear myself better without having to turn up in the mix.
 
#75
boilingTheDead said:
sorry for the trashy title.
I stumbled across this video on yt:


he mentoines that a P or a J bass can sometimes kinda get lost in the mix live, but his stingray always cuts through.

Would you agree on that?

...I mean of course it depends on the situation, but generally I heard better live mixes with stingrays or simular basses. Maybe the pickup placement is just ideal for live scenarios and PA systems? I can remember a variety of smaller concerts where the bassist played a pbass (fingerstyle) and it had soo less definition that I could only feel the air move but could not hear the notes clearly, even though I stood pretty close to the PA. I wonder If the tone would have been more "hearable" over distance with a pickup closer to the bridge.
Click to expand...

Bull****
 
#77
IMHO, It's more about about the tone and voicing of the amp and cab.

I play with P & J pups through vintage acoustic control amps & cabs... might not be the high end boutique sound, but it's never lost in the mix.
 
#79
I've played both P's and J's and never had the problem of being heard in a mix with usually two guitarists and a drummer (one drummer who was crash happy at that). I'd talk to whoever is engineering the sound to get that corrected.
 

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