Okay...if I'm using compression (I like the pretty blue light) on my bass rig, is there a diminished need for FOH / PA compression downstream?
Riis
Riis
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PA and compression
- Thread starter seanm
- Start date
yes, if being used post anything that will change your gain stage/ cause extreme dynamics... basically, the last thing in the chain before foh.
(this pertains only to a direct signal).
That explains a lot, thanks!
Before answering "yes, you need compression" or "no, its not required", I would ask whether the bassist is already introducing compression / limiting somewhere upstream in the signal chain. Lot of variables come into play:
*Pedal vs. rackmount?
*DI pre or post the effects loop?
Riis
Tell you what, if I know the FOH guy is not adding any compression at the board, then I am da*n sure putting some on at my end and it will be at such a point in the signal chain that there's no way he can take it out. It has nothing to do with my technique (although for the record, I am told mine is very good...) I don't want so much that it takes all the dynamics out of my playing, but you need at least a little compression to push bass through the mix, that's just the way it works.
Does it? Listen to Stevie Wonder's "Signed Sealed Delivered", and notice the way that Babbitt's bass cuts through the mix.
No compression, either tracking or mixing.
I think I'm through here.
Are we talking live performance or studio recording? Two entirely different animals, from what I understand, when it comes to sound engineering.
Riis
Hell, two totally different species, to be honest. I always crack up when I see studio guys try to mix live.
LOL... the studio guy sitting there at the FOH desk with headphones on all night and the house mix sounds like crap but he won't do anything cause "it sounds great in the phones".
- Feb 27, 2005
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- Full disclosure, I'm a certified Fender technician working in a music store that carries Fender, Yamaha, and Ibanez products among others.
Unfortunately, that kind of behavior is NOT just limited to guys with studio backgrounds. My guitarist actually fired a soundman on the spot (this was before I joined the band) for insisting that there was nothing he could do about the horrible sound FOH because ,"It sounds good in the cans, what else am I supposed to do about it?"
I do sound often in various sizes venues for long a time now , I have rarely encountered bass players who had such a good technique , that they didn't need compressors.
In jazz fest , it happens often , but in pop/rock , I don't remember...
A lot of other factor comes to play , the stage level , gtr players with the "11 only" dynamic , bad arrangements , lack of experience, etc.....
And IMHO/IME , 90% of bass amps are a very bad reference , it's very "touchy" then , to translate that bass sound to a PA.
Of course this wouldn't apply in a ****** bar with a bad PA......
You probably get my point anyways
In jazz fest , it happens often , but in pop/rock , I don't remember...
A lot of other factor comes to play , the stage level , gtr players with the "11 only" dynamic , bad arrangements , lack of experience, etc.....
And IMHO/IME , 90% of bass amps are a very bad reference , it's very "touchy" then , to translate that bass sound to a PA.
Of course this wouldn't apply in a ****** bar with a bad PA......
You probably get my point anyways
most of the time, the bigger the pa, the more it's going to get used (to a point). Heck on a good large setup almost everything has some kind of dynamics processing going on.
If nothing else, it's not a bad idea when taking a bass signal to have some kind of limit set on it higher up. BG is very dynamic, and i've seen inexperience soundmen pop their speakers from an unexpected bass whomp or kick drum transient. Not so great when that happens during the first 10 min of the show..........
If nothing else, it's not a bad idea when taking a bass signal to have some kind of limit set on it higher up. BG is very dynamic, and i've seen inexperience soundmen pop their speakers from an unexpected bass whomp or kick drum transient. Not so great when that happens during the first 10 min of the show..........
+1000! I delude myself into thinking I've found the sound on stage only to find the finished product thin, scooped, or otherwise unnatural when the post-eq / processed signal ends up at FOH. I've found it advantageous to send an unadulterated (okay...pre-eq, mild transparent compression) signal and let the guys do their thing.
Riis
I'd like to know how you guys know what the bass sounds like in the house?
do you have someone else play your rig while you peruse the venue?
Are you talking about how the bass sounds in a empty room, during sound check?
how about when the room is full during show time?
are you hearing a full range mix thru sidefills?
what are you talking about?
do you have someone else play your rig while you peruse the venue?
Are you talking about how the bass sounds in a empty room, during sound check?
how about when the room is full during show time?
are you hearing a full range mix thru sidefills?
what are you talking about?
Yep, that is my M.O. as well. And, even though my send is pre-EQ, I still try to dial in my stage sound as closely as I can during the soundcheck so I'm not messing with that stuff once it's showtime. Have only had a very few instances where the FOH guy has asked me to make further adjustments doing it this way.
Well, that is really the Question of the Universe.
Everyone has a different playing style so I have found this approach to not really be that effective. And I detest wireless so I've never been one of those guys roaming around the room playing during the soundcheck either.
Huge difference from the first scenario to the second. "Too loud" bass during soundcheck can easily become "not enough" once the room fills up. That's why in my band, where we are mixing ourselves from the stage, I usually push give the bass about a 10% boost between 1st and second set (and the kick drum about half that), then if the room gets even more full later in the night I'll nudge those two channels up even a bit more.
Side fills? I wish. We're not that big-time... I'm lucky if I get a little bass in my front wedge.
Sorry these answers probably aren't of much value, but it kinda goes to show you what we are up against.
yes, exactly.
I focus on getting a nice working tone from my rig on stage, then send a DI pre EQ signal to the house, and a mic on the cab if available. The rest is about playing for me, not the house sound. The house sound should be changing and adjusting as the room changes...not my job man!
What I have run into more times than I expect, is other players on the stage asking me to turn up. Of course the "correct" response is, "no, how about you guys turn DOWN" but you can't always do that especially with drummers or horn players. So sometimes I find myself trying to split the difference between what makes me happy, my bandmates happy and doesn't totally make things impossible for FOH.
Because half the time I can't figure what they're adding, subtracting, etc. A lot depends on the sound company. Some are great in the communications dept, others leave a lot to be desired. I play it safe and give them the cleanest, smoothest signal I can. Maybe its overkill, like wearing a belt and suspenders.
Riis
We do our own sound 90% of the time so its problematic. We send one of our entourage into the venue during soundcheck and the first set. If we get a thumbs up, we figure "close enough". This pertains more to matching vocal / instrument levels and overall volume than equalization, compression, and other fine points of sound processing. Given our limited equipment (good, not great PA) and personnel budget (read: no fulltime sound guy), we do okay. That being said...
We are holding an inservice / tutorial / call-it-what-you-will in the upcoming month where we are bringing in a local FOH pro. We've secured the use of an American Legion ballroom (free!) for the sole purpose of refining our sound reinforcement practices. Not ideal but if it results in any level of improvement, its well worth the time and energy.
Riis
