PA Mains--Bass Without A Sub

[Wayward Son]

Greetings.

I'm looking to purchase a pair of PA mains. I am looking for mains that will best handle the low frequencies at "moderate", but definitely "gig/bar" volumes--and still capture a solid bottom end feeling, WITHOUT a sub, and without putting the main's drivers at risk. I don't have the budget for a sub at this point in time--so yes, while I understand "get a sub" is the "go to" response, that's not what I'm asking. The other factor is weight--like to keep it right at 40 lbs. Here is our situation:

Our current band configuration is all IEM (no stage amps).
I want to stay right near or under $2000 for a pair of mains.
I want the weight to be right at or under 40 pounds.
I use only 4 string basses. No pedalboard. Direct out to mixer.
I tend to favor a crisp, clean tone, but like the feel of bottom end support beneath that.
We play mostly classic rock.
We are not overbearingly loud--but do play both outdoors and indoors.
The clubs we play in are usually capacity of around 200-300.
Let me know if you need additional information...

I have done a bit of research and have three "maybes" on my list:

QSC K12.2 ($2000 + tax)(39 lbs)

RCF ART 912-A ($1800 +)(42 lbs)

JBL PRX 912 ($1800 +)(43 lbs)

For folks with experience using any of these systems, might one be "considerably better" than another in terms of handling the lower frequencies of bass? Alternatively, is there an even better system in my budget/weight range that handles bass frequencies better than these that I'm not aware of? NOTE: I'm pretty conservative about not pushing my gear to the limit. I like the gear I purchase to serve me well and last a long time.

I understand that without a sub, I may not "feel" the bass as much--I get it. But again, that's my question...which of these (or other suggested options) might be better at producing a decent semblance of that lower end "feel" of the bass--without a sub--and without too much worry about blowing out speakers?

The specifications I read are similar--and I've learned that specifications don't always tell the "true story" of capability. Hence, my post for experienced users--who have these systems--and/or have gone through this process in the past. Maybe it's too big an ask...but the capability of gear seems to be improving every year, so maybe not...

Thanks!

 

[pepj]

I would not approach any gig for 100 plus people with live drums with those tops..or another other, tbh.
And those are decent tops.

Not clear whether you'll put kit through tops too and thats before you get to the mix.

 

[Wayward Son]

We don’t mic drums indoors. He plays an acoustic kit and is plenty loud enough for the volume we reach/indoor venues we play.

But outdoors may need some drum reinforcement. Good thought and provides some clarification. Thanks.

 

[DirtDog]

I had good results doing just this with my country bar band.

I used E-V ZLX 15P as mains. Aside from vox and acoustic guitar, I ran my bass direct (SansAmp RBI) plus a sprinkle of kick and snare (if needed) through these mains. We also used IEMs.

I chose 15” option vs 12” as the 15s offered better low end frequency response. Down to 40Hz, I think?

Worked perfectly fine for indoor gigs in venues holding up to say, 200 ppl. Don’t expect to fill a club-like room with a PA like that.

For larger or outdoor gigs, I just rented a pair of subs. And that did the trick for gigs like in beer tents, campgrounds etc where you’re not expected to produce concert level SPLs.

 

[smogg]

Of the three choices in the OP I'd go QSC. Just remember to turn on the HPF on the bass and kick channels to keep the mud at bay.

 

[Dollar2]

I have done gigs with QSC K12s without a sub and no bass amp. It's okay but not engaging. I think you will want 15s if you're going without a sub. I've added a QSC 212C sub and I am much happier with the result. It's still a very compact rig.

 

[PCR]

I'm in transition right now. I have a pair of K12.2's. I just purchased a RCF 705. Even just one (crossed over) is a mass improvement everything going through the K12.2.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

If going without subs you want a box with 15” drivers. Dual 15” in the same box would be preferred.
12” drivers start to roll of the low end around the 100hz zone.

 

[pfschim]

If going without subs you want a box with 15” drivers. Dual 15” in the same box would be preferred.
12” drivers start to roll of the low end around the 100hz zone.
View attachment 7220528

keep in mind that you don't really need to reproduce the fundamental (lowest note on a 4 string). The QSC K12.2 rate -6db at 50hz. They will work fine for modest volumes in modestly sized venues. although personally, I would still use a dedicated bass amp/cab to truly deliver the low end ... even just a 1x12 cab.

I have 2 K12.2's and always use a small dedicated bass rig (Mesa WD800 into a Berg CN 112) to fill out the low end.

 

[pepj]

We sometimes use k8's for vox and acoustic plus kick and overhead with a single Mackie sub.
We have a K212 but haven't needed to carry it yet. Not a fan of the Mackie but it does ok.
We play outside with that as the K8's are great. Haven't had to take out k10's yet either.
I still would not run bass through any tops if the band levels were anything but low key.
As good as QSC is, I wouldn't be confident as if using iem, you aren't really hearing the tops if they might be strugging.

 

[FightMilk]

I have a pair of Yamaha CBR15s and they do a good job of bass guitar and all the other nonsense I run through it. Passive though which I prefer not running power to each speaker. They travel well at 39lbs with good handles.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

What is being described is running a system like that (take your pick) full out all the time. That is tough on the gear, long term. Of the mentioned speakers I've had the best with the QSC, I am part owner of an audio company and they have proven to be robust, with great warranty. We have a number of powered offerings from them (the sb112 is mind blowing for what it is). In comparison, we also have QSC E series- E12 paired with QSC PLD amplifier. At a lower power rating spec, the E12's absolutely smoke the K12.2 in every aspect. The wooden boxes just sound better, and have way more body to them. 60 lbs each. Not what you want to hear, but just being real. Another thing to consider- Outdoor shows, with no shade coverage in the summer on those powered cabs, is not good. They get hot enough, if running full out. Honestly, K12 .2 with a full no stage amp mix as described , running reasonably, is realistically in the 100 person territory, with no physical low end. You want to leave some headroom, just like a bass amp. Springing for a portable sub like the SB 112 will take a massive load off powered tops, allow them to run much more efficiently, and make the system seem 3x the size off the bat. Buy once, cry once (or for 12-48 months interest free depending on the source). Anyway, that's my .02 cents.

 

[bassically_eli]

Considering the budget and performance requirements, I think it would be hard to beat a pair of 15” Yamahas. Depending on which Yamaha line you might choose, you could have some money left over to start saving for a sub.

 

[sawzalot]

I'd look at a pair of QSC KW 153's. They are slightly above your price range, but not too far. Also they are heavier--but you're probably going to have to go pricier/heavier to get the sonics you describe. I'd save a little more cash to fund the better speakers and a hand truck.

 

[Pep]

I guess I need to make a recommendation. I’ve used my original (1st generation) ElectroVoice ZLX-12P fir mains in a 4 piece Classic Rick banpnd and they did great. The new ZLX 12P G2s are even better. They’re only $599 each ($1198 per pair) and only weigh about 33 lbs each.That leaves you enough $$$ for one subwoofer.

I would go with the Alto TS18S which is $799. That with the EVs and you’re right at budget. You won’t find a lightweight sub. This one is 93 lbs.
Sometimes Sweetwater will discount a little if you order all of that together and you get their exclusive 2 year warranty. That will allow you to save for your second Alto Sub.

I’m recommending these Alto subs because a friend of mine is a sound engineer with about 30 years experience. We hired him to run sound for my Chicago Tribute band at an outdoor function of about 500 people and he used the Altos as subs. I was really doubtful about how good they would be but the did a great job.
Since you’ve been playing you probably have speaker stands and cables. Make sure you order the covers for all of these to protect them.

Here are some links:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...-1000w-12-inch-powered-speaker-with-bluetooth
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TS18Sub--alto-professional-ts18s-18-inch-powered-subwoofer

 

[bordinco90]

I would say go with the LD Icoa 15a. It's amazing and can handle low end like a subwoofer. The only negative is that its heavy (around 65lbs), but it sounds so good and is worth it IMO.

 

[Wayward Son]

I had good results doing just this with my country bar band.

I used E-V ZLX 15P as mains. Aside from vox and acoustic guitar, I ran my bass direct (SansAmp RBI) plus a sprinkle of kick and snare (if needed) through these mains. We also used IEMs.

I chose 15” option vs 12” as the 15s offered better low end frequency response. Down to 40Hz, I think?

Worked perfectly fine for indoor gigs in venues holding up to say, 200 ppl. Don’t expect to fill a club-like room with a PA like that.

For larger or outdoor gigs, I just rented a pair of subs. And that did the trick for gigs like in beer tents, campgrounds etc where you’re not expected to produce concert level SPLs.

I had good results doing just this with my country bar band.

I used E-V ZLX 15P as mains. Aside from vox and acoustic guitar, I ran my bass direct (SansAmp RBI) plus a sprinkle of kick and snare (if needed) through these mains. We also used IEMs.

I chose 15” option vs 12” as the 15s offered better low end frequency response. Down to 40Hz, I think?

Worked perfectly fine for indoor gigs in venues holding up to say, 200 ppl. Don’t expect to fill a club-like room with a PA like that.

For larger or outdoor gigs, I just rented a pair of subs. And that did the trick for gigs like in beer tents, campgrounds etc where you’re not expected to produce concert level SPLs.

Thanks. I might be able to borrow a sub as needed for outdoor work. Good to hear it worked well enough for you with the 15's.

 

[Wayward Son]

keep in mind that you don't really need to reproduce the fundamental (lowest note on a 4 string). The QSC K12.2 rate -6db at 50hz. They will work fine for modest volumes in modestly sized venues. although personally, I would still use a dedicated bass amp/cab to truly deliver the low end ... even just a 1x12 cab.

I have 2 K12.2's and always use a small dedicated bass rig (Mesa WD800 into a Berg CN 112) to fill out the low end.

Thank you. This would be possible as I have a D800+ and a pair of Subway 115 cabinets. So, still using the IEM, I suppose I could limit the lower frequencies sent to the PA mains (using the XR18 mixer's HPF/EQ settings), and put my 115 cabinets up front (where a sub would be)? I could use the Pre-DI out on the amp--meaning I could put a lower end of the bass through my 115 cabinets, and leave the PA mains to disperse the higher bass frequencies. Something like that? I guess I'll have to play with that. Might be a good enough solution for our situation.

This would still leave any keyboards, all guitars, vocals and, when outside, select drums to run through the tops. But at least the lower end bass would be full from the cabinets and the higher end might produce a wide feel from additional dispersion through the mains. Interesting. I think I've always, traditionally, thought my amp needs to be behind me. But if I'm all IEM, it probably doesn't matter where the cabinets sit--so long as it helps the overall sound out front. Probably have to play with that--positioning to see what works best.

 

[Wayward Son]

What is being described is running a system like that (take your pick) full out all the time. That is tough on the gear, long term. Of the mentioned speakers I've had the best with the QSC, I am part owner of an audio company and they have proven to be robust, with great warranty. We have a number of powered offerings from them (the sb112 is mind blowing for what it is). In comparison, we also have QSC E series- E12 paired with QSC PLD amplifier. At a lower power rating spec, the E12's absolutely smoke the K12.2 in every aspect. The wooden boxes just sound better, and have way more body to them. 60 lbs each. Not what you want to hear, but just being real. Another thing to consider- Outdoor shows, with no shade coverage in the summer on those powered cabs, is not good. They get hot enough, if running full out. Honestly, K12 .2 with a full no stage amp mix as described , running reasonably, is realistically in the 100 person territory, with no physical low end. You want to leave some headroom, just like a bass amp. Springing for a portable sub like the SB 112 will take a massive load off powered tops, allow them to run much more efficiently, and make the system seem 3x the size off the bat. Buy once, cry once (or for 12-48 months interest free depending on the source). Anyway, that's my .02 cents.

Thank you--(and pepj). That's good advice--and something additionally to consider. I obviously don't want to be running things full out. And with the outdoor work, in the sun--they'll have that additional heat to deal with.

 

[Wayward Son]

I'm in transition right now. I have a pair of K12.2's. I just purchased a RCF 705. Even just one (crossed over) is a mass improvement everything going through the K12.2.

Thanks smogg and Dollar2 as well. It's good to hear positive experiences using the QSC gear. with and/or without a sub. I only know that people say that brand is put together really well and sounds great. I understand that 15's might get me some added lower end extension. Just have to consider weight (my own personal problem).